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    Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
    If you actually wanted to balance the xp-gain, your best bet would be to just reward time played instead of paying different activities differently.
    Here's another starting point.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Roland View Post
      Here's another starting point.
      Basically, your 0xp mod could be an interesting approach, though not one I personally would like, at least not as long as working for things is possible, and considering this mod, it seems that even the lbd-mechanic can be brought back to a satisfying degree.

      But what happens next, will shock you:

      Your

      4) Training In Return For Jobs

      Completing jobs for the trader will result in him training you in those areas of your choice. Challenge, Tier 1, and Tier 2 quests will be rewarded with 1 skillpoint. Tier 3 and Tier 4 quests will be rewarded 2 skillpoints. Tier 5 quests will be rewarded with 3 skillpoints.
      completely nullifies your

      2) Zero Experience For Actions

      Actions in the game are now only valuable for helping you survive and accomplish your goals. There are no xp incentives to tempt you to do one thing or another for the purpose of farming points to level up. Do what you want because of your objectives and play organically.
      My strategy would be to find a couple of traders, ideally located close together, while pushing to unlock the motorcycle, so I can finish as many quests per day as possible. Particularly with enough higher tier quests, that can amount to well over ten skillpoints per day. That means that your mod, that claims to have romoved all "xp incentives to tempt you to do one thing or another for the purpose of farming points to level up", actually does the opposite and provides only one very specific incentive. Nothing aids your progress but doing the quests.

      Accordingly, I highly recommend that you remove the 4) to restore your mod's integrity. In that case, yes, there would be no incentive anymore, to do one thing over another. Or to do anything at all.

      The question, however, remains, why such an incentive would be bad. It would be bad, if the incentive would be unfair, which can be the case in a perk-driven mechanic where you get more rewards for activity A than you get for activity B, without a proper reason. With an LBD-mechanic your incentive is to do the things you want to do, and get better at them, while doing them. But is that in any way against "your objectives" or un"organic"? Not at all. You do what you have to, according to your playstyle. Say your playstyle is building big castles. Mine a lot, get better at it, get more resources along the way. Very organic. My playstyle is killing zombies. So I kill a lot, get better at it, and kill them more efficently. How is that not the most organic thing in the world?

      In any case is it interesting that you have that feature while you are running a "0XP" theme, that explicitly tries to remove "xp incentives to tempt" the player to do "one thing or another". It looks much like you were - however subconsciously - unhappy without a way to actively work toward rewards. So maybe you really should investigate the thing about the brain's response to rewards further and understand, how video games even work. Why they are "fun".

      Comment


        Well I created the mod for myself and I don’t obsessively farm quests to gain 10 skill points per day from the trader. Plus the great thing about xpath modlets is that anyone who wishes can easily remove the skill point reward from the quest part of it if they are prone to the same temptations of farming to speed progress that they were with LBD. That is the genius of the xpath modular design.

        Finally, having played it I can say that it really does remove the incentive to do specific actions for the purpose of gaining XP. It does give incentive to do quests but those have travel time and multiple activities associated with them that tie into the normal activities of playing the game. Also, and I can only speak for myself, doing the quests for a skillpoint have more of a quality of you've done the trader a favor and so he is going to teach you something. That is quite a bit different thematically than just mining for hours or actively seeking out and hunting zombies purely for the purpose of gaining xp.

        So, of course, your mileage may vary but instead of psycho-analyzing my motives for having skill point quest rewards that you think nullifies my first claim of no xp incentives to do specific actions-- just remove those quest rewards from the xpath by changing the skillpoint reward values to zero if you feel you would be irresistably influenced to spam quests all day long.
        Last edited by Roland; 05-24-2019, 02:19 PM.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Viktoriusiii View Post
          Are
          you
          serious
          ???

          530 voices is "just an interest poll"? That is like about 1/10th of active players. The fact that this did nothing to change their mind (coupled with all the arguments on the forums) should be concerning.

          The low rating is because the game is just less fun.
          I said it like 10 times already. It has nearly no replayability, is stripped of its original charme and core features got changed for the worse.
          All related to the perk system.
          to add +1 to this

          There are also some of us who stopped playing, but keep an interest of where is the whole thing going. Seeing a LBD thread certainly brings my hope up for this game, with which I could not engage anymore in A17.

          While I am certainly not the target audience, I am still interested to see if there will be a change in direction, as the base game used to be great, from my perspective. (peak best was somewhere between A10 and A12). While the goal of game design should not be to pander to an old audience which got disengaged with "new" developments, the fact that there at least a discussion going on with those who still remain engaged and playing about LBD, gets my hopes up (perhaps unrealistically so). I am sure there are more of us than just me, and perhaps even new players who never started playing this game, ie if I only found about 7DTD now, I certainly would not have played 1300 hours, but was just lucky I got in on time.

          Either way there certinly is an audience out there which would find a hybrid LBD system more engaging than this glorified zombie killer that the game turned out to be (focusing at something what the game enginge is not even good at - shooter simulator).

          There are many issues from my perspective, ie "wrong direction" from where we used to be to where this game went, however if LBD was back, with whatever good or bad other game dev choices are in place, I would find the game more interesting to engage with again, that is for sure.

          The judgement on how many of this type of players are out there, is a different topic, ultimatley it is about how devs "feel" about it. For me I'd rather have a game where I learn how to use the shotgun and get better while I am using it, even if it means that I could also stand next to the cactus with bandages, if I want to get that medical skill up. Getting medical skill up is entirely optional (i could live with baseline bandage healing rate just fine), while killing zombies and becoming a super medic/chemist/miner/whaetever is just disengaging (for me, off course).

          Comment


            Originally posted by Roland View Post
            Well I created the mod for myself and I donít obsessively farm quests to gain 10 skill points per day from the trader. Plus the great thing about xpath modlets is that anyone who wishes can easily remove the skill point reward from the quest part of it if they are prone to the same temptations of farming to speed progress that they were with LBD. That is the genius of the xpath modular design.

            Finally, having played it I can say that it really does remove the incentive to do specific actions for the purpose of gaining XP. It does give incentive to do quests but those have travel time and multiple activities associated with them that tie into the normal activities of playing the game. Also, and I can only speak for myself, doing the quests for a skillpoint have more of a quality of you've done the trader a favor and so he is going to teach you something. That is quite a bit different thematically than just mining for hours or actively seeking out and hunting zombies purely for the purpose of gaining xp.

            So, of course, your mileage may vary but instead of psycho-analyzing my motives for having skill point quest rewards that you think nullifies my first claim of no xp incentives to do specific actions-- just remove those quest rewards from the xpath by changing the skillpoint reward values to zero if you feel you would be irresistably influenced to spam quests all day long.
            I'm not interested in your mod, Roland, however, while you claim it does not, it actually has a very strong and narrow incentive, to do quests in order to acquire skillpoints. And that you included this incentive is indeed a strong indication, that even the guy who actually wanted to create a mod without incentives, wants to have incentives. Because incentives are fun.

            See, psychology is key in game design. A good designer knows their way around the human mind, how to tickle it, so the player enjoys the game.

            Also:

            Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
            The question, however, remains, why such an incentive would be bad. It would be bad, if the incentive would be unfair, which can be the case in a perk-driven mechanic where you get more rewards for activity A than you get for activity B, without a proper reason. With an LBD-mechanic your incentive is to do the things you want to do, and get better at them, while doing them. But is that in any way against "your objectives" or un"organic"? Not at all. You do what you have to, according to your playstyle. Say your playstyle is building big castles. Mine a lot, get better at it, get more resources along the way. Very organic. My playstyle is killing zombies. So I kill a lot, get better at it, and kill them more efficently. How is that not the most organic thing in the world?

            Comment


              Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
              I'm not interested in your mod, Roland,
              Good. I'm not trying to convince you to try it. No worries. And I'll address this next part just to the general readership so you won't get the wrong idea that I'm trying to sell you on my mod.


              I believe Kubikus' replies to me perfectly illustrate why LBD is wrong for this game as a vanilla default offering. His response to my mod was that I invalidated my claim that there is no incentive to do specific activities in order to gain xp because I offered skillpoint rewards for doing quests and if he were to play my version of the game he would definitely farm those quests in order to move along the progression as quickly as possible.

              Now, if Kubikus would feel such a compulsion to do quests all day long as a way to hyperspeed up the progression ladder it seems clear that the granularity of LBD would compound that problem by a thousandfold. In other words, Kubikus is saying that I'm falsely advertising a pure progression based on time because the trader training component overwhelms and dominates my version of the game for anyone who is susceptible to that sort of play. I agree with that which is why I have always stated that my mod is best as a mod and not as the default version of the game.

              By the same token, it has been clear to me since the earliest alphas when the LBD component was introduced that it immediately overwhelmed and dominated the game. Farming xp became the point of the game in the minds of many-- and there is nothing wrong with that for those who enjoy it. But that is exactly why LBD is much better as mod and should never be re-introduced as the default vanilla version of the game.

              I feel that even the current version still puts too much of focus on xp incentives which is why I came up with my mod. I put the trader rewards in simply because with the removal of xp they seemed quite lackluster and (as I already mentioned) I felt that thematically it was like being trained by the trader so it gave the skillpoints some meaning beyond "kill some zombies get better at cooking". You would still kill some zombies or find a parcel but the reason you got better at cooking was not because of those actions-- it was because that was what you asked the trader to give some instruction in.

              BUT....it is now clear to me that there is that subset of player that will farm anything simply to get to the top of the ladder at the fastest speed possible and they might feel irresistibly compelled to do multiple quests every day to the exclusion of all else which is why....its a mod.

              And LBD should only be a mod for the same reason.

              Comment


                Originally posted by meganoth View Post
                ...diminishing returns if you kill zombies in fast succession...
                THIS! Personally, I wouldn't mind if TFP applied diminishing returns to ANY source of xp repeated within say 5 minutes of a similar activity. Maybe boost the XP values across the board to counterbalance a bit for the diminishing return. However, I'm also fairly certain ANY sort of gating xp/leveling will cause the waterworks to begin.

                Too many whiners out there which take to the forums whenever the slightest challenge is added to their playstyle. Although, devs sticking their heads in the sand and ignoring minmaxing, exploitative or cheating playstyles is only an intelligent design decision if A) the game is strictly single player, or B) they DON'T care at all about long term player retention or reviews.
                Last edited by Cernwn; 05-24-2019, 04:11 PM.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by meganoth View Post
                  Or even diminishing returns if you kill zombies in fast succession
                  This was what I was trying to accomplish with drip fed xp. The idea is that experiences don't instantly give the player skill points; instead they stick around and get absorbed/processed over the period of a few days, kind of approximating how learning happens in real life. The more experience you have unprocessed, the faster it contributes to leveling up, but if you accumulate too much, then your brain starts to "leak" and the effort/reward efficency falls.

                  Comment


                    If you only focus on fighting min-max players you will cause massive collateral damage.

                    One question has been left unanswered so far. How many of these min-max players are there who play "7 Days to die" at all? If the percentage of min-max players is very small, why waste any thought on them instead of building the system for all the other players?

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by RipClaw View Post
                      If you only focus on fighting min-max players you will cause massive collateral damage.

                      One question has been left unanswered so far. How many of these min-max players are there who play "7 Days to die" at all? If the percentage of min-max players is very small, why waste any thought on them instead of building the system for all the other players?
                      There is no need to fight min/max players. With mods the game can support all playstyles. There are mods that restore LBD available right now. If you like LBD because it helps you play organically then get the mod. If you like LBD because you can speed spam your way to top level in short amount of time then get the mod.

                      Even better is if you can alter a mod to fit you even better. Like the idea of time-based survival rewards but don't want the trader quests to be integral? Get my mod and change all the skillpoint quest rewards to zero (super simple with xpath) and you have your game.

                      The devs are designing the vanilla game the way THEY want it. They experimented with LBD and decided to reject it for the vanilla game because they don't like that design. They aren't designing to fight anyone so much as they are spiraling in on what they really like and want. Those who like and want what they do will stick with vanilla and the rest will mod.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Roland View Post
                        They aren't designing to fight anyone so much as they are spiraling in on what they really like and want.
                        That is not true.
                        While it might be a part of it, it has been said (long ago) that they changed it because they werent able to balance it.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Viktoriusiii View Post
                          That is not true.
                          While it might be a part of it, it has been said (long ago) that they changed it because they werent able to balance it.
                          The difficulty of balancing is actually part of why they don't like it and why they are spiraling in on what they like better. Plus, it really isn't hard to see what game in the single most influencing factor on Joel's decisions regarding player progression.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Roland View Post
                            The difficulty of balancing is actually part of why they don't like it and why they are spiraling in on what they like better. Plus, it really isn't hard to see what game in the single most influencing factor on Joel's decisions regarding player progression.
                            Are you even allowed to throw such a curveball at them?
                            Like... I disagree a lot with you, but ppl actually say you are a yesman after such... uhm... comparisons?

                            and yes it is obvious. I think that it was so obvious, that it didn't even become a meme :P

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Viktoriusiii View Post
                              Are you even allowed to throw such a curveball at them?
                              Curveball?

                              Like... I disagree a lot with you, but ppl actually say you are a yesman after such... uhm... comparisons?
                              Wat? Whatever you're pitching is going over my head.

                              and yes it is obvious. I think that it was so obvious, that it didn't even become a meme :P
                              It's so obvious Joel has openly stated it several dozen dozen times over the past six years...

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Roland View Post
                                Here's another starting point.
                                Love the idea of your mod, minus the skill point quest rewards. Do you plan to continue it into A18 and beyond?

                                I haven't tried it yet, but I definitely know I'm going to like it.

                                Comment

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