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    Originally posted by Roland View Post
    Good. I'm not trying to convince you to try it. No worries. And I'll address this next part just to the general readership so you won't get the wrong idea that I'm trying to sell you on my mod.
    *rollseyes*


    Originally posted by Roland View Post
    I believe Kubikus' replies to me perfectly illustrate why LBD is wrong for this game as a vanilla default offering. His response to my mod was that I invalidated my claim that there is no incentive to do specific activities in order to gain xp because I offered skillpoint rewards or doing quests and if he were to play my version of the game he would definitely farm those quests in order to move along the progression as quickly as possible.

    Now, if Kubikus would feel such a compulsion to do quests all day long as a way to hyperspeed up the progression ladder it seems clear that the granularity of LBD would compound that problem by a thousandfold.
    But I would only feel such a compulsion to do quests all day because you offer no other way to work on progression. I am merely, since you brought it to my attention, pointing out how your trader traning component completely nullifies your premise that "There are no xp incentives to tempt you to do one thing or another for the purpose of farming points to level up".

    Originally posted by Roland View Post
    In other words, Kubikus is saying that I'm falsely advertising a pure progression based on time because the trader training component overwhelms and dominates my version of the game for anyone who is susceptible to that sort of play. I agree with that which is why I have always stated that my mod is best as a mod and not as the default version of the game.
    See. That's all.

    Originally posted by Roland View Post
    By the same token, it has been clear to me since the earliest alphas when the LBD component was introduced that it immediately overwhelmed and dominated the game.
    I basically agree, but it's not the lbd-component that immediately overwhelmed and dominated the game, it is the progression component, of which the lbd is a sub-clause. Now, lbd - and some other systems, like books and the wellness mechanic - have been replaced by the perks, and the progression system still dominates.

    And I already explained a major reason why that is so: Progression is fun, and achieving goals you worked for even more so. Another reason is that there are not many other components in this game, for example a story line or meaningful quests. Therefor, character progression is an important driving force of the game.

    What is your theory? Why does progression dominate the game? Why are people so obsessed by levels? And when ppl love levels so much, and love working for them even more, why would it be the greatest of ideas to remove these mechanics from the game? Should, in that case, the game not be designed so that acquiring levels is a lot of fun?

    Originally posted by Roland View Post
    Farming xp became the point of the game in the minds of many-- and there is nothing wrong with that for those who enjoy it. But that is exactly why LBD is much better as mod and should never be re-introduced as the default vanilla version of the game.
    Again I agree, but why do you make a difference between lbd and vanilla's current perk system? It's the same xp farming principle, just differently executed.


    Originally posted by Roland View Post
    I feel that even the current version still puts too much of focus on xp incentives
    Actually, it's even more now, because all recipes that used to be books, are now perks, and the wellness system, that used to be food based, is now perks. So it got worse. I mean, sure, some particularly bad aspects of vanilla's pre A17 lbd are gone, but... As it had been pointed out multiple times on the forums, these aspects, like the cacti-nonsense, could've just been fixed. Those flaws don't mean that a perk system with a general xp currency is better than an lbd system. Because now, more than ever, you have the incentive to do things that have nothing to do with the goal that you currently want to achieve. Because xp is a currency, and not tied to the activity and it's corresponding skill.


    Originally posted by Roland View Post
    which is why I came up with my mod. I put the trader rewards in simply because with the removal of xp they seemed quite lackluster and (as I already mentioned) I felt that thematically it was like being trained by the trader so it gave the skillpoints some meaning beyond "kill some zombies get better at cooking". You would still kill some zombies or find a parcel but the reason you got better at cooking was not because of those actions-- it was because that was what you asked the trader to give some instruction in.
    Yeah but roleplay aside, you actually got better at cooking because you killed a bunch of zombies and used the rewarded skillpoint on a cooking perk, while you could as well have unlocked a motorcycle recipe, increased your stamina or learned to jump 1 meter higher. There is no meaningful connection between the activity and the result.

    In an lbd system you would get better at cooking by actually cooking or doing cooking related things.

    Originally posted by Roland View Post
    BUT....it is now clear to me that there is that subset of player that will farm anything simply to get to the top of the ladder at the fastest speed possible and they might feel irresistibly compelled to do multiple quests every day to the exclusion of all else which is why....its a mod.

    And LBD should only be a mod for the same reason.
    What reason, Roland, these absurd exaggerations you're always using to portray ppl you disagree with as idiots? I mean read this stuff:

    "he would definitely farm those quests in order to move along the progression as quickly as possible"

    "Kubikus would feel such a compulsion to do quests all day long as a way to hyperspeed up the progression ladder it seems clear that the granularity of LBD would compound that problem by a thousandfold"

    "when the LBD component was introduced that it immediately overwhelmed and dominated the game"

    "irresistibly compelled to do multiple quests every day to the exclusion of all else"

    Calm down.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
      *rollseyes*


      But I would only feel such a compulsion to do quests all day because you offer no other way to work on progression. I am merely, since you brought it to my attention, pointing out how your trader traning component completely nullifies your premise that "There are no xp incentives to tempt you to do one thing or another for the purpose of farming points to level up".
      Technically what I said is true as there really are no experience points in the game. And quests are not exactly the same as the single repetitive activity of say mining. What it really comes down to is that having played it for myself I can attest that I don't feel compelled to do quests to the point that it "completely nullifies" my premise of no xp incentives. There are no xp incentives. There are skillpoint incentives for surviving so that the timer doesn't reset and there are skillpoint incentives to do quests.

      Yeah but roleplay aside, you actually got better at cooking because you killed a bunch of zombies and used the rewarded skillpoint on a cooking perk, while you could as well have unlocked a motorcycle recipe, increased your stamina or learned to jump 1 meter higher. There is no meaningful connection between the activity and the result.
      It isn't much of a roleplaying leap given that the trader gave you a job to do and the reward for that job was a skillpoint towards improving an area of your choice. Having actually played it I can attest that it does give enough of a gap from the explicit actions of killing zombies or digging up treasure to feel like the improvement in cooking came from the trader instead of those activities.

      What reason, Roland, these absurd exaggerations you're always using to portray ppl you disagree with as idiots?
      I don't intend to portray people as idiots. I think you are simply projecting your own motives and intentions into what I post. You are well known as an incredibly aggressive debater who tries to make others out to be stupid. I've learned to just ignore your style of discussing issues knowing that those who are reading will also recognize the way you behave.

      I mean read this stuff:

      "he would definitely farm those quests in order to move along the progression as quickly as possible"

      "Kubikus would feel such a compulsion to do quests all day long as a way to hyperspeed up the progression ladder it seems clear that the granularity of LBD would compound that problem by a thousandfold"

      "when the LBD component was introduced that it immediately overwhelmed and dominated the game"

      "irresistibly compelled to do multiple quests every day to the exclusion of all else"

      Calm down.
      You are the one who said that if you ever played my mod you would set up a system of doing 10 quests a day between two or more traders. Did you mean just for fun because you like the quests that much? I figured you meant so as to earn tons of skillpoints to buy tons of perks at a much faster pace than is offered by the daily generation of points. If I misunderstood you then I'm sorry. I'm calm. I don't see those statements above as making you or others out to be idiots. I just don't feel the need that you do to try and gain levels/xp/skillpoints at the fastest possible speed given whatever structure is offered. I made my mod for myself. If someone else wanted to remove the trader skillpoint component of my mod they could do so easily.
      Last edited by Roland; 05-27-2019, 04:26 PM.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
        *rollseyes*
        Why spend so much time and effort complaining about a mod that you will never play? Seems like you do this to hunt a moderator of this forum at any cost.

        In any case I do love the mod and I think you need to get a life.

        Shin

        Comment


          Originally posted by Roland View Post
          Technically what I said is true as there really are no experience points in the game. And quests are not exactly the same as the single repetitive activity of say mining. What it really comes down to is that having played it for myself I can attest that I don't feel compelled to do quests to the point that it "completely nullifies" my premise of no xp incentives. There are no xp incentives. There are skillpoint incentives for surviving so that the timer doesn't reset and there are skillpoint incentives to do quests.
          You're just making excuses. What does it matter if a quest is not the same as mining. It is an incentive. You advertise your mod as having no incentives. But it does have incentives. That does completely nullify the premise of no incentives.

          And your technicality is ridiculous, but you know that.

          Originally posted by Roland View Post
          It isn't much of a roleplaying leap given that the trader gave you a job to do and the reward for that job was a skillpoint towards improving an area of your choice. Having actually played it I can attest that it does give enough of a gap from the explicit actions of killing zombies or digging up treasure to feel like the improvement in cooking came from the trader instead of those activities.
          You wouldn't get the skillpoint, if you wouldn't kill zombies. That's the objective truth. Then you fantasize about the trader teaching you how to slap a slice of meat on a grill.

          No wait Roland. Technicalities. "If you wouldn't kill zombies, dig up treasure and find the supplies". Gotta be careful, right? So my bizarre theses are not easily disproven. By the local lawyer. lol

          Originally posted by Roland View Post
          I don't intend to portray people as idiots.
          I think you do. And I think many others think it too. Like it was "well known". Ever heard the nickname "Trolland", Roland? I read it just recently, when you felt the need to lecture a guy about the big secret that during melee, you can move. "But Kubikus, he said!"

          lol

          Originally posted by Roland View Post
          I think you are simply projecting your own motives and intentions into what I post. You are well known as an incredibly aggressive debater who tries to make others out to be stupid. I've learned to just ignore your style of discussing issues knowing that those who are reading will also recognize the way you behave.
          What indeed occasionally serves me a spoonful of diabolical fun is to ridicule when people persistantly make stupid statements. I never need to twist their words though, and mind the "persistantly" - I always let the first few times go. Unfortunately, many are too stubborn to admit their mistakes, and so they become my entertainment. Then they get angry.

          Adorable.

          Originally posted by Roland View Post
          You are the one who said that if you ever played my mod you would set up a system of doing 10 quests a day between two or more traders. Did you mean just for fun because you like the quests that much?
          Of course not. Though killing zombies is the activity I like the most in this game.

          Originally posted by Roland View Post
          I figured you meant so as to earn tons of skillpoints to buy tons of perks at a much faster pace than is offered by the daily generation of points.
          Of course.

          Originally posted by Roland View Post
          If I misunderstood you then I'm sorry.
          No, you understood that just right. I mean that there is a way "to earn tons of skillpoints to buy tons of perks at a much faster pace than is offered by the daily generation of points", and that I would utilize that way. Just not to the overexegerated, near clinically insane extent you portray it as, in order to make it look like your mod had actually no flaw and only total idiots would ever farm those quest rewards.

          Originally posted by Roland View Post
          I'm calm. I don't see those statements above as making you or others out to be idiots.
          But these statements are nothing I ever said, Roland. Clearly nothing I ever meant.

          Originally posted by Roland View Post
          I just don't feel the need that you do to try and gain levels/xp/skillpoints at the fastest possible speed given whatever structure is offered. I made my mod for myself. If someone else wanted to remove the trader skillpoint component of my mod they could do so easily.
          Yeah great. But you see, the premise of your mod is that you have no incentives to do a certain something in order to progress. But you have such an incentive. So you actually & indeed + objectively nullify the premise of your mod, because the declared premise is not true. Technically not true and actually not true. Generally untrue.

          And that is really just the case. Sowwy (not sorry tho) that Kubikus the Diabolic called it out. I don't even care. Let's talk about lbd some more, have you read this? lol

          Comment


            Originally posted by Shin View Post
            Why spend so much time and effort complaining about a mod that you will never play? Seems like you do this to hunt a moderator of this forum at any cost.
            I'm not complaining and I'm merely having a conversation. What's the problem with that?

            Originally posted by Shin View Post
            In any case I do love the mod and I think you need to get a life.
            Good for you that you love the mod, and good for Roland to have such loyal fans to defend him.

            Quick question tho. This is from Roland's mod's description:

            Originally posted by Roland View Post
            Actions in the game are now only valuable for helping you survive and accomplish your goals. There are no xp incentives to tempt you to do one thing or another for the purpose of farming points to level up. Do what you want because of your objectives and play organically.
            Are there really no incentives to tempt you to do one thing or antoher for the purpose of farming points to level up or are there such incentives through the trader quests?

            Comment


              The fact is that while my mod does have an incentive for doing quests there is no xp incentive that directly springs from individual actions.

              I’ll let those who actually play the mod report their feedback about whether I falsely advertised anything to them. It works perfectly well to keep any one action such as killing, mining, scavenging, farming, etc feel more valuable than any other action and that’s what I meant. Perhaps I will reword my description to be more clear on that count.

              As feedback from someone who just read the descriptions and then thought about what it might be like to hypothetically play it and from that mental exercise decide it isn’t for them— it’s good feedback.

              There definitely IS an incentive to quest and I didn’t mean to convey the idea that there were zero incentives — only that the incentive of earning xp for each and every individual action was removed and that removal creates a nice freedom to spend your time doing whatever you want without worrying if it will result in less vs more xp.

              As for returning to LBD....sure. That also could be a fun mod.


              EDIT: Altered the wording in my description to hopefully reduce the angst.
              Last edited by Roland; 05-28-2019, 04:08 AM.

              Comment


                As the discussion stemmed into one topic i must agree with it. Mainly what is the main aspect people are running after.

                Progression.

                In every game it is attained with different means, but in the end shows the difference between of how the player was at the beginning and how he is late game. The core of these feelings of accomplishment stem from a couple things (not everyone will aim for them):
                1. A secure base - a place to come back to with your loot, rest, craft, etc. The more you have there for crafting, defense, etc. the better you are at the moment.
                2. A steady amount of resources - needed for crafting, building projects or preparation for the horde nights. If you don't have to run for resources or it takes less time to gather them.
                3. Better or improved gear - weapons and equipment progression is most visible. First you start with stone and go forth using iron and steel. Gather, buy or craft higher tier weapons and add mods to them. Etc.
                4. Advancement in skills - in A16 it was due to LBD, now it is mostly due to XP, which can be gathered in various actions. This is most important as it influences other progressions.
                5. Post anything else you think shows how you progress...

                I think this is the main problem, XP now defining progress for everything else. You could have a base and upgrade it, but for that you need better materials, ergo buying or crafting (with better skills). You could have more resources, but need better tools for it and/or better skills. You could have better gear, but if you can't find or buy it, you have to craft it with better skills. Everything comes down to leet skills.
                Last edited by Khulkhuum; 05-28-2019, 11:12 AM.

                Comment


                  I think that the freedom the perk system offers, is mostly the freedom for players to ruin their own experience.
                  Really doubt it will be balanced to the point that this isn't the case anymore, but who knows.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by RestInPieces View Post
                    I think that the freedom the perk system offers, is mostly the freedom for players to ruin their own experience.
                    Really doubt it will be balanced to the point that this isn't the case anymore, but who knows.
                    As much of a proponent of LBD as I am (was?), I'm prepared to see how Perks play out in future Alpha's. I think the main hope I have, is that TFP make it open to modding, so LBD can come back in as a mod post-Gold, and then players can experiment with whether they prefer Perks or LBD. If the option is there to play either, Perks through default, LBD through Mods, then I think it'll be all good.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by OzHawkeye View Post
                      As much of a proponent of LBD as I am (was?), I'm prepared to see how Perks play out in future Alpha's. I think the main hope I have, is that TFP make it open to modding, so LBD can come back in as a mod post-Gold, and then players can experiment with whether they prefer Perks or LBD. If the option is there to play either, Perks through default, LBD through Mods, then I think it'll be all good.
                      This reminds me so much of the ark flyers change. Only that they already had full mod support.
                      And people still went nuts and its the most downloaded mod to this day.

                      As a dev, you can't (well you can obviously, figure of speech) just change a core mechanic of a game to your liking, without gathering player intel first.

                      Think if they suddenly removed bloodmoon. Some players might be happy, but it would completely change the game they bought and enjoyed for years.

                      Removing a core feature WILL bring you hate. And if you don't have modsupport, that hate will tripple.


                      Yes they might bring modsupport in and players will swarm a LBD mod, but the game itself will not be balanced around it.
                      In gamedevelopment, everything influences each other. So the LBD is connected to timemanagement, crafting and gamestage, those are connected to more features and so on.
                      With xp beeing so... universal, specialization (the thing they wanted) on tasks is completely gone. Which influences timemanagement, which influences quests looting and building and so on and so forth.


                      It might still be fun, but it will not reach the heights lbd could have, if they just fixed the two or three issues remaining in A16.

                      Comment


                        If only the lack of perks prohibited progression in other areas (building, crafting, gathering resources) then it would be way different.

                        LBD was cool because you could progress in various ways alongside the perk and skill progression. On the other hand it prohibited progress at various points because you had to grind with specific actions to be better at mining, to be better at shooting, to be better at crafting, etc. in order to mine, shoot and craft better. Current system has level gates and when they're dropped you will only be prohibited with the amount of points you have, not number of levels you have to grind.

                        The end point is the same. If you maxed all perks in current system or in LBD, you still don't have equipment, functioning base, gathered materials, etc. There is an area where you can progress, even though you would do it faster than at base perks.

                        EDIT: I meant artificially having maxed out perks for comparison reasons. In the course of playing you progress in other areas alongside perks.
                        Last edited by Khulkhuum; 05-28-2019, 02:07 PM.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Roland View Post
                          The fact is that while my mod does have an incentive for doing quests there is no xp incentive that directly springs from individual actions.
                          But the fact is that there is an incentive to do certain things, and the removal of such an incentive was the premise of your mod.

                          Originally posted by Roland View Post
                          I’ll let those who actually play the mod report their feedback about whether I falsely advertised anything to them.
                          Yeah, because it is an opinion.

                          Originally posted by Roland View Post
                          It works perfectly well to keep any one action such as killing, mining, scavenging, farming, etc feel more valuable than any other action and that’s what I meant. Perhaps I will reword my description to be more clear on that count.
                          Since you decided to switch to grown up mode (mostly): I wonder why you feel the need to have that in. The "no incentive"-approach, while not my cup of tea, is interesting. Why sneak an incentive back in. And ya see, one can farm easily over ten, maybe even over 20 skillpoints per day with the trader quest rewards.

                          I don't see the benefit, if you argue that it's not very relevant, why not just remove it alltogether? Add something else to spice up trader rewards, such as a lot of building materials, so mining becomes less of must.

                          Originally posted by Roland View Post
                          As feedback from someone who just read the descriptions and then thought about what it might be like to hypothetically play it and from that mental exercise decide it isn’t for them— it’s good feedback.
                          A mediocre jab? Well, since I know that there is an incentive and I know I could utilize it to earn 5 time the skillpoints I get for just surviving, how is there anything unclear or uncertain?

                          And you know, Roland, as I layed out in depth and detail prior to your defense of your mod, I like incentives. That's why your mod is not for me in the first place. That's why I see incentives not as a problem, but a welcome feature. But you don't want to discuss any of that.

                          Originally posted by Roland View Post
                          There definitely IS an incentive to quest
                          But of course. It's crystal clear.

                          Originally posted by Roland View Post
                          and I didn’t mean to convey the idea that there were zero incentives — only that the incentive of earning xp for each and every individual action was removed and that removal creates a nice freedom to spend your time doing whatever you want without worrying if it will result in less vs more xp.

                          As for returning to LBD....sure. That also could be a fun mod.


                          EDIT: Altered the wording in my description to hopefully reduce the angst.
                          See, and my argument is not about wether it is "xp", it is about the premise you wrote:

                          Actions in the game are now only valuable for helping you survive and accomplish your goals. There are no xp incentives to tempt you to do one thing or another for the purpose of farming points to level up. Do what you want because of your objectives and play organically.
                          Now you removed the crucial part, which obviously is farming points to level up. Cuz that's what xp does, it levels you up and earns you skillpoints.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Khulkhuum View Post
                            If only the lack of perks prohibited progression in other areas (building, crafting, gathering resources) then it would be way different.

                            LBD was cool because you could progress in various ways alongside the perk and skill progression. On the other hand it prohibited progress at various points because you had to grind with specific actions to be better at mining, to be better at shooting, to be better at crafting, etc. in order to mine, shoot and craft better.
                            But then again, what kind of "grind" was that? For example mining, is it a "grind" when you mine stone and then have the stone to use the stone? Why call it a "grind"? Grinding, as I understand it, is when you do things only to reach a goal. If you would mine the stone, while you don't need the stone, but want the next level. Like forging daggers in Skyrim. You did not need them. What was it then, did it make you a few coin or even cost you some when you sold them? Anyways, you would not have made the daggers if it wasn't for leveling up.

                            With a well designed lbd-system, there would not be such a grind. You would do what you want, and get better at it over time. I mean, sure, you could "grind" insofar that you say "well, I don't really need the stones right now, but I'll mine them anyways so I level up". But at some point, you'd still have those stones in your chest.

                            Comment


                              Here is another detail I might add. I had played a couple games recently, probably amounting to roughly a hundred hours, and I things get indeed quite boring as soon as you have unlocked all the perks you like. Because there are no goals anymore, particularly since "just suriviving" is very easy.

                              This is not a new problem, check out my A16 pistol skill:

                              Code:
                              	<action_skill name="Pistols" exp_to_level="150" icon="pistol" description_key="pistolsDesc" title_key="pistols" group="firearms">
                              		<recipe name="partsPistolScope" unlock_level="50"/>
                              		<recipe name="partsPistolSuppressed" unlock_level="75"/>
                              		<recipe name="partsPistolExtended" unlock_level="100"/>
                              		<recipe name="partsPistolRecoil" unlock_level="125"/>
                              		<recipe name="partsPistolMax" unlock_level="150"/>
                              		<effect name="EntityDamage">
                              			<multiply skill_level="1,5" value="1,1.04" />
                              			<multiply skill_level="5,11" value="1.04,1.07" />
                              			<multiply skill_level="11,19" value="1.07,1.1" />
                              			<multiply skill_level="19,32" value="1.1,1.3" />
                              			<multiply skill_level="32,49" value="1.3,1.4" />
                              			<multiply skill_level="49,70" value="1.4,1.6" />
                              			<multiply skill_level="70,100" value="1.6,1.8" />
                              			<multiply skill_level="100,200" value="1.8,2.3" />
                              		</effect>
                              		<effect name="DismembermentChance">
                              			<add skill_level="1,50" value="0,0.1"/>
                              			<add skill_level="50,90" value="0.1,0.2"/>
                              			<add skill_level="90,100" value="0.2,0.3"/>
                              			<add skill_level="100,200" value="0.3,0.5"/>
                              		</effect>
                              	</action_skill>
                              While vanilla stopped at level 100, I added another 100 levels, which I never maxed out. So improvement would never stop, and there were even levels at which you unlocked neat recipes for modded weapons.

                              This is something that perks can't really do, the practically infinite gradual slight improvement that avoids that the player hits a progression cap and has no goals anymore.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                                But then again, what kind of "grind" was that? For example mining, is it a "grind" when you mine stone and then have the stone to use the stone? Why call it a "grind"? Grinding, as I understand it, is when you do things only to reach a goal. If you would mine the stone, while you don't need the stone, but want the next level. Like forging daggers in Skyrim. You did not need them. What was it then, did it make you a few coin or even cost you some when you sold them? Anyways, you would not have made the daggers if it wasn't for leveling up.

                                With a well designed lbd-system, there would not be such a grind. You would do what you want, and get better at it over time. I mean, sure, you could "grind" insofar that you say "well, I don't really need the stones right now, but I'll mine them anyways so I level up". But at some point, you'd still have those stones in your chest.
                                The difference may be that people also grind stones for the purpose of accumulating resources. I'm such a person sometimes, taking more not for the levels, but for the benefit of having enough things to safely do a lot of things. There will always be some kind of grind and it is needed in games, but at the same time there is also a bad grind, where you spend way too much time because only this way you may advance further.

                                I think that's the main reasoning here. If you spend too much time on grinding for the sake of achieving something (because otherwise you won't pass that next hurdle) this means that it needs tweaking. The other end is what Roland is talking about, you don't necessarily need to grind, but if you do you will get a serious bonus to everything (better skills, because you get more points to invest). It's like spending a lot of time to get that super weapon early game (when later on it would take far less time and resources), which would help you go through fights like a breeze that early.

                                EDIT: Having a goal is way better than not having any. To that i do agree, but in the current system the shift from perks could be done with anything really. Compare to how Diablo 3 introduced Paragon levels. Before them raising levels was the main focus and it was fun, now you have to breeze through regulars (because they mean nothing) to start earning paragons.
                                Last edited by Khulkhuum; 05-28-2019, 03:02 PM.

                                Comment

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