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    #31
    Originally posted by OzHawkeye View Post
    Because it's a non-trivial matter to do so (especially if it were an "in-game, periodic save"), and then it may need to be updated with every single update to the game they make from here on out, so not only would they have to spend the time to do it, they'd have to re-spend that time re-doing it after each update.

    I would much rather see that time invested in more content than in a feature which every player can easily accomplish themselves by doing nothing more complicated than copying a directory every now and then.

    Now, once the game has gone, or is real close to Gold, the cost/benefit analysis of building an in-game periodic save, or even just a "save to new copy on exit" routine, gets a lot more in favour of the benefit side of that equation, but until then, the cost is much larger, and the benefit (which really only amounts to protecting a player from their own failure to back up every now and then) isn't sufficiently large enough to outweigh that cost.

    Everything the Pimps do takes time Kubikus, so you only get one feature (overlapping staff resource skills notwithstanding) at the expense of (or at least delay to) some other feature.
    I find the ", for one, hope that the Pimps don't spend a minute of their time"-wish kinda questionable, as it sounds like they should not even spend a very short time on a feature that could prevent all that frustration.

    And while I certainly know nothing, I don't quite see how coding a copy paste task (copy the current save game to a backup location) should be such a complicated matter.

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
      I find the ", for one, hope that the Pimps don't spend a minute of their time"-wish kinda questionable, as it sounds like they should not even spend a very short time on a feature that could prevent all that frustration.

      And while I certainly know nothing, I don't quite see how coding a copy paste task (copy the current save game to a backup location) should be such a complicated matter.
      I don't see that wish as questionable at all, I want the Pimps to spend all their time doing stuff to this game that I can't easily do myself. Pure and simple, I don't want them to spend time making a save game backup, because I can easily do that myself.

      Lacking access to the source code for example, I can't squash bugs, optimise code or add features that require significant amounts of C#, or at least C# depending on hooks into that code, so that's what I'd like to see TFP concentrate on, not relieving me of the quite trivial task of copying a save directory every now and then.

      That said, if it's easy to do, then the cost/benefit analysis becomes more attractive (and not for the benefit, but for the reduced cost), and once they get down to a more pure optimisation and polish phase, the benefit rises somewhat (a more polished final product), so it also gets more attractive from that side.

      Until then though, I'm quite happy to click and drag a folder every now and then to protect myself, and struggle to see why someone wouldn't take such a simple precaution themselves.

      Comment


        #33
        Biggest problem of having the option to choose between multiple saves to load and creating new ones (or choosing on which file to save to) is the fact no matter how much disk space it takes for a single save, there will be people who simply create tens or hundreds of different saves. Seen people do that in various games and some hardcore gamers go up to more than a thousand saves...

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          #34
          It would be nice to have an option to choose how many backups you would like to keep and then the game manages it.

          Comment


            #35
            Originally posted by OzHawkeye View Post
            If he's playing an experimental and/or Alpha game, failing to even manually back up the game files, which is no more complex than copying files in their directories, really is on him.

            Yes, you can batch files and the like to back them up on a regular basis, drop them into date-time stamped directories so you can have multiple prior backups, but no one could reasonably claim they don't know how to copy files, and any person making such a claim, really ought not be playing Alpha-state games.

            I, for one, hope that the Pimps don't spend a minute of their time catering for such players just personally.
            This is the stupidest rudest most eloquently written reply I have ever read on those forums.
            What you're essentially saying is players get over the fact they payed for a game (because it's in alpha), they need no support for a function that could help thousands of players AS WELL AS the devs to be able to replicate and fix a bug . You're also suggesting the devs listen to you because you know how to do batch programming . Who cares about the majority of the player base who does not even suspect the kind of horrendous bugs that ruin entire bases,corrupt save files and lose dozens if not hundreds of hours in a game.

            Suck it up unsuspecting paying alpha/beta/gama testers!
            ...
            You're essentially the kind of person that turns gaming communities toxic .
            Last edited by Hollowprime; 05-29-2019, 06:40 AM. Reason: being rude is not necessary a reason to be mauled by zombies

            Comment


              #36
              Originally posted by Hollowprime View Post
              This is the stupidest rudest most eloquently written reply I have ever read on those forums.
              What you're essentially saying is players get over the fact they payed for a game (because it's in alpha), they need no support for a function that could help thousands of players AS WELL AS the devs to be able to replicate and fix a bug . You're also suggesting the devs listen to you because you know how to do batch programming . Who cares about the majority of the player base who does not even suspect the kind of horrendous bugs that ruin entire bases,corrupt save files and lose dozens if not hundreds of hours in a game.

              Suck it up unsuspecting paying alpha/beta/gama testers!
              ...
              You're essentially the kind of person that turns gaming communities toxic .
              Well, thank you for calling my post eloquent at least. :-)

              What I actually said was that if you play a game still in Development, and either don't know how to and/or don't bother to make any attempts to back the save game files up periodically, you really run a huge risk of eventually losing those files.

              What I actually said too, was that this backup strategy need be no more complicated than copying the save game directory, and frankly, if you don't know how to do that then perhaps Alpha stage games might not be such a good idea.

              What I actually said also, was that it was my personal hope that TFP not spend time putting some complicated and potentially non-trivial game save routine in, when it was so trivially easily to manually back the game up every now and then, given that time spent doing that (and potentially having to maintain that from one Alpha version to another), would be at the expense of time spent developing more content (or fixing the sort of bugs that kill games in the first place). I did not link that preference to my knowledge of batch programming, or my knowledge of anything else for that matter.

              And I did it all without employing the sort of hyperbole that is the true cause of toxicity in forum communities.

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by OzHawkeye View Post
                Well, thank you for calling my post eloquent at least. :-)

                What I actually said was that if you play a game still in Development, and either don't know how to and/or don't bother to make any attempts to back the save game files up periodically, you really run a huge risk of eventually losing those files.

                What I actually said too, was that this backup strategy need be no more complicated than copying the save game directory, and frankly, if you don't know how to do that then perhaps Alpha stage games might not be such a good idea.

                What I actually said also, was that it was my personal hope that TFP not spend time putting some complicated and potentially non-trivial game save routine in, when it was so trivially easily to manually back the game up every now and then, given that time spent doing that (and potentially having to maintain that from one Alpha version to another), would be at the expense of time spent developing more content (or fixing the sort of bugs that kill games in the first place). I did not link that preference to my knowledge of batch programming, or my knowledge of anything else for that matter.

                And I did it all without employing the sort of hyperbole that is the true cause of toxicity in forum communities.
                I always praise a well written reply even if it's a rude one.

                But tell me,if a batch file and a few lines of code can generate backup files,is it *so* hard to add a boolean option [yes/no] on a unity game in order to make a copy of a backup file with the tag [OLD_SAVE] every N-th day?

                Side note, I'm currently struggling with the stupid windows backup system because apparently it can't backup on the same disk as the game is . That means I'll have to use the batch file or god forbid use third party programs to do it for me.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Originally posted by Hollowprime View Post
                  I always praise a well written reply even if it's a rude one.

                  But tell me,if a batch file and a few lines of code can generate backup files,is it *so* hard to add a boolean option [yes/no] on a unity game in order to make a copy of a backup file with the tag [OLD_SAVE] every N-th day?

                  Side note, I'm currently struggling with the stupid windows backup system because apparently it can't backup on the same disk as the game is . That means I'll have to use the batch file or god forbid use third party programs to do it for me.
                  Potentially, yes, actually. If you back up a game while it is running there will be some inconsistencies in that backup, for the simple reason that the game is running, and time taken to make that backup is some figure greater than zero.

                  Let's look at an example of an in-game save, that runs "in the background" (in Unity, it's running as (one of many I'd suspect), coroutines) and the player can continue playing while it runs.

                  At some point the save game routine will save the players inventory. At some other point (be it sooner or later) even if only milliseconds later, it will back up all the player placed blocks on the map.

                  So what could happen is a dupe bug, whereby for example, the player places a block after their inventory has been backed up, and before the player placed blocks have been saved. Hey presto, a free block.

                  Alternately, if the game tries to freeze the world, as the current save game routine de facto does (since it runs after the world has been shut down), then the player gets a lag event while everything is paused and the game is saved. No doubt the Gods Of IT will ensure that pause will occur at the very worst possible time, right as the player was about to hit or dodge a zombie say, and then you'll get people complaining about seemingly random lag events in the game.

                  Moreover, having designed this in-game periodic save feature, the Pimps would then need to support it and potentially update it as the game went through each of it's remaining Alphas, wherein content is still subject to change, which could impact on what this routine has to save or not save. They would have to design an in-game UI scene for it, with sufficient options to allow the player to tailor to their own preferences, and to prevent it turning into bloatware as a new instance of the save game file was created every time the player exited the game.

                  Oh, and they'd also have to do this both for SP and MP and headless servers to.

                  And the pay off for all of that, is relieving the player of having to open up Explorer, select the save game directory, and copy it to anywhere else on their computer. That's really not hard to do, and I'd struggle to see how someone could plausibly claim to not know how to do that.

                  Now, once the game goes Gold, the potential re-work of the periodic save game goes away, and the benefit goes up (in a more polished product), and it becomes something much more worth doing. I just don't see it as being worth their time while still in Alpha, given how easy it is for players to back up their own games themselves.

                  And finally, my first question when anyone talks about a data loss of any kind is "Did you back up?"
                  Last edited by OzHawkeye; 05-29-2019, 07:26 AM.

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Originally posted by OzHawkeye View Post
                    Potentially, yes, actually. If you back up a game while it is running there will be some inconsistencies in that backup, for the simple reason that the game is running, and time taken to make that backup is some figure greater than zero.

                    Let's look at an example of an in-game save, that runs "in the background" (in Unity, it's running as (one of many I'd suspect), coroutines) and the player can continue playing while it runs.

                    At some point the save game routine will save the players inventory. At some other point (be it sooner or later) even if only milliseconds later, it will back up all the player placed blocks on the map.

                    So what could happen is a dupe bug, whereby for example, the player places a block after their inventory has been backed up, and before the player placed blocks have been saved. Hey presto, a free block.

                    Alternately, if the game tries to freeze the world, as the current save game routine de facto does (since it runs after the world has been shut down), then the player gets a lag event while everything is paused and the game is saved. No doubt the Gods Of IT will ensure that pause will occur at the very worst possible time, right as the player was about to hit or dodge a zombie say, and then you'll get people complaining about seemingly random lag events in the game.

                    Moreover, having designed this in-game periodic save feature, the Pimps would then need to support it and potentially update it as the game went through each of it's remaining Alphas, wherein content is still subject to change, which could impact on what this routine has to save or not save. They would have to design an in-game UI scene for it, with sufficient options to allow the player to tailor to their own preferences, and to prevent it turning into bloatware as a new instance of the save game file was created every time the player exited the game.

                    Oh, and they'd also have to do this both for SP and MP and headless servers to.

                    And the pay off for all of that, is relieving the player of having to open up Explorer, select the save game directory, and copy it to anywhere else on their computer. That's really not hard to do, and I'd struggle to see how someone could plausibly claim to not know how to do that.

                    Now, once the game goes Gold, the potential re-work of the periodic save game goes away, and the benefit goes up (in a more polished product), and it becomes something much more worth doing. I just don't see it as being worth their time while still in Alpha, given how easy it is for players to back up their own games themselves.

                    And finally, my first question when anyone talks about a data loss of any kind is "Did you back up?"
                    No need to make things complicated. This feature is ALREADY used in multiplayer servers since A16 . Since most servers restart periodically they create backups within second . They do so using third party tools.
                    But since we're talking about copy pasting old saved data ,this is already done in the game . In fact this seems like a trivial matter using a simple coroutine . If you don't want to hog the main unity thread with coroutines (which the game already does,it's why it lags when new zombies are created) just use an extra thread...

                    As I said in previous reply, backing saved files doesn't happen non stop,even if it could . It happens every N-th day. So even if you need to pause the game in order to backup saved files and not get conflicts ,you'll do so every N-th day. But I digress .
                    Last edited by Hollowprime; 05-29-2019, 11:55 AM.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by Hollowprime View Post
                      No need to make things complicated. This feature is ALREADY used in multiplayer servers since A16 . Since most servers restart periodically they create backups within second . They do so using third party tools.
                      But since we're talking about copy pasting old saved data ,this is already done in the game . In fact this seems like a trivial matter using a simple coroutine . If you don't want to hog the main unity thread with coroutines (which the game already does,it's why it lags when new zombies are created) just use an extra thread...

                      As I said in previous reply, backing saved files doesn't happen non stop,even if it could . It happens every N-th day. So even if you need to pause the game in order to backup saved files and not get conflicts ,you'll do so every N-th day. But I digress .
                      I expect when the game goes Gold there will be a more robust save game feature within it. (I'm just fine waiting for it till then).

                      It still doesn't completely remove the aspect of personal responsibility though, for all computer owners to back up that data which they don't want to lose. And that is the main lesson of the day for the unfortunate OP.

                      If you don't want to lose it, copy it.

                      If you really don't want to lose it, back it up to another drive.

                      If you really really don't want to lose it, back it up to another device.

                      And if you absolutely can't afford to lose it, back it up somewhere offsite (something the Developers of Zomboid could unhappily relate to and agree with - https://www.kotaku.com.au/2011/10/bu...oject-zomboid/)

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by OzHawkeye View Post
                        Potentially, yes, actually. If you back up a game while it is running there will be some inconsistencies in that backup, for the simple reason that the game is running, and time taken to make that backup is some figure greater than zero.

                        Let's look at an example of an in-game save, that runs "in the background" (in Unity, it's running as (one of many I'd suspect), coroutines) and the player can continue playing while it runs.

                        At some point the save game routine will save the players inventory. At some other point (be it sooner or later) even if only milliseconds later, it will back up all the player placed blocks on the map.

                        So what could happen is a dupe bug, whereby for example, the player places a block after their inventory has been backed up, and before the player placed blocks have been saved. Hey presto, a free block.

                        Alternately, if the game tries to freeze the world, as the current save game routine de facto does (since it runs after the world has been shut down), then the player gets a lag event while everything is paused and the game is saved. No doubt the Gods Of IT will ensure that pause will occur at the very worst possible time, right as the player was about to hit or dodge a zombie say, and then you'll get people complaining about seemingly random lag events in the game.

                        Moreover, having designed this in-game periodic save feature, the Pimps would then need to support it and potentially update it as the game went through each of it's remaining Alphas, wherein content is still subject to change, which could impact on what this routine has to save or not save. They would have to design an in-game UI scene for it, with sufficient options to allow the player to tailor to their own preferences, and to prevent it turning into bloatware as a new instance of the save game file was created every time the player exited the game.

                        Oh, and they'd also have to do this both for SP and MP and headless servers to.

                        And the pay off for all of that, is relieving the player of having to open up Explorer, select the save game directory, and copy it to anywhere else on their computer. That's really not hard to do, and I'd struggle to see how someone could plausibly claim to not know how to do that.
                        Not to mention, and then they have to remove it all cleanly, pulling it out of everywhere it appears in the code when Alpha is over, because they don't want the feature available as it is considered cheating.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Originally posted by AtomicUs5000 View Post
                          Not to mention, and then they have to remove it all cleanly, pulling it out of everywhere it appears in the code when Alpha is over, because they don't want the feature available as it is considered cheating.
                          I think that'll be hard for TFP to enforce actually. Clearly the game is regularly saving ongoing game data into the save game files (at least for headless servers), so they're not worried per se about periodic backups occurring. I must admit, I haven't actually tried running batch files to perform periodic backups of local client save game files, so I've never actually tested whether the local client behaves the same way.

                          If the client does work the same way as the headless server, and TFP were really keen on preventing players from using periodic saves as a "get out of jail / unexpected death" feature, then the client would have to ensure it retained the game state in memory, and wrote to the save files only on exit.

                          Interesting now that I think about it, I might go set up a periodic batch process targeting local client save game files and see whether the local client is behaving that way or not. I know for the little games I've made so far in Unity, I've never bothered writing back to the save game files until exit time, it'd be interesting to see if TFP does the same.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            I doubt there will ever be a save game feature that would allow players to conveniently get a redo by saving just before a quest or just before the blood moon. There is a reason the game saves over itself in a single save file every couple seconds. No time travel

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Originally posted by OzHawkeye View Post
                              ...
                              I don't think they'll try to enforce, just saying they won't make what they consider cheating convenient.

                              The concept of keeping data in memory until exit would be bad. Any power outage and your game is toast. Sure it could keep the last file in tact, but that could have been a few hours of gameplay ago.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Originally posted by Roland View Post
                                I doubt there will ever be a save game feature that would allow players to conveniently get a redo by saving just before a quest or just before the blood moon. There is a reason the game saves over itself in a single save file every couple seconds. No time travel
                                I'd love to know what the Devs are doing in this respect. All the games I've made in Unity have been small arcade like games, but there's one I'm hoping to sell eventually and the savegame function could be considerable there.

                                Originally posted by AtomicUs5000 View Post
                                I don't think they'll try to enforce, just saying they won't make what they consider cheating convenient.

                                The concept of keeping data in memory until exit would be bad. Any power outage and your game is toast. Sure it could keep the last file in tact, but that could have been a few hours of gameplay ago.
                                True, keeping it all in memory could have some issues for any sort of Abend occurring.

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