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  • Ghostlight
    replied
    Originally posted by RipClaw View Post
    Unfortunately, you also have the random stats. I've had multiple times the case that I was happy about a Q6 item but the joy was only short-lived because I noticed that the stats were so much worse than the Q5 item that the extra mod slot wouldn't have compensated that.
    This is single stupidest aspect of the RNG on items. It is heart-breaking when a T6 finally drops and it is inferior to your tier 5 in every way except the mod slots and the (irrelevant) durability.

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  • Katitof
    replied
    Originally posted by Kalen View Post
    Except they apparently did use realism as an argument for removable mods. IMO, non-removable mods would've been so much more interesting.
    TBH the most exciting thing would be weapons coming pre-modded, where you would have to find what you need.
    With some adjustments, like not everything is pre-modded at all slots, there are some exclusive mods that can't be removed and you can still put your own mods when there is space etc.

    That's how I'd do it instead of random stats, also more variety and rebalance of weapons so they actually feel different in other aspects then ammo used and rate of fire/reload speed.

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  • Grue
    replied
    Originally posted by e1ghtbit View Post
    Fortifying, diamond tip, heavy hammer, the one that increases stone damage for my pickaxe.

    How about I do armor?

    Mufflers, improved fittings, armor increase and storage.

    Or guns?

    Cripple em, red dot, silencer and extend mags

    Should I keep going?
    Fortifiying is a waste on most tools, ergonomic grip is a lot better.
    Also mufflers are broken, they currently have no effect.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kalen
    replied
    Originally posted by Laz Man View Post
    There is a difference between realism and inconsistent/complicated design. If they went the realism route, the mod system would be more complicated then what it is today.
    Except they apparently did use realism as an argument for removable mods. IMO, non-removable mods would've been so much more interesting.

    Leave a comment:


  • Laz Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Kalen View Post
    Interesting the things TFP use the realism argument for vs. the things they dont. Didn't Joel make the argument that realism was terrible for games?
    There is a difference between realism and inconsistent/complicated design. If they went the realism route, the mod system would be more complicated then what it is today.

    Leave a comment:


  • Kalen
    replied
    Originally posted by Roland View Post
    That was the argument. There was a Dev diary meltdown when Joel announced that mods would be permanent. There was a division of preference on the team as well. In the end, they decided to go with interchangeable for everything as that would be simpler to understand rather than have some things be permanent and other things be removeable.

    The fix could have been with the artwork. If all weapons were modeled as jury-rigged welded together pieces of equipment then maybe those parts that would have been easily interchangeable in the civilized world would have to be broken to be removed in the apocalypse. Plus I like the Star Wars junky look anyway.
    Interesting the things TFP use the realism argument for vs. the things they dont. Didn't Joel make the argument that realism was terrible for games?

    Leave a comment:


  • Roland
    replied
    Originally posted by Laz Man View Post

    Edit: I suppose where some would argue against permanent mods installs are some of the gun mods (e.g. mag extenders, silencers, etc.) As those things are designed to be interchangeable.
    That was the argument. There was a Dev diary meltdown when Joel announced that mods would be permanent. There was a division of preference on the team as well. In the end, they decided to go with interchangeable for everything as that would be simpler to understand rather than have some things be permanent and other things be removeable.

    The fix could have been with the artwork. If all weapons were modeled as jury-rigged welded together pieces of equipment then maybe those parts that would have been easily interchangeable in the civilized world would have to be broken to be removed in the apocalypse. Plus I like the Star Wars junky look anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • Laz Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Roland View Post
    What’s funny is that I also expected that adding a mod would be permanent. There would be no swapping in and out.

    It WAS permanent until right before A17 released to experimental when they changed their minds. I liked the fact that using a mod changed that item forever.

    As for damage nerf, the fix for that is to increase the damage bonus for mods.

    I’d like the following:

    Brown and Orange — no mod slots
    Yellow — one mod slot
    Green and Blue— two mod slots
    Purple — three mod slots

    Installing a mod is permanent and adds a heftier damage bonus in addition to its designed bonus.

    No micromanagement, greater variety of gear, tougher choices, more reasons to craft mods. Instead of owning one sledge hammer and rotating through various mods you have several kinds of sledgehammers suited for different tasks.
    Never thought about permanent mod installs but can see how it would make for tougher choices and encourage players to actually craft more than one of the same item/mod. Sounds like a good change to add more value to crafting which is a good thing.

    Currently only junk turrets are worth crafting multiples of....

    Edit: I suppose where some would argue against permanent mods installs are some of the gun mods (e.g. mag extenders, silencers, etc.) As those things are designed to be interchangeable.
    Last edited by Laz Man; 12-19-2019, 10:31 PM.

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  • Roland
    replied
    What’s funny is that I also expected that adding a mod would be permanent. There would be no swapping in and out.

    It WAS permanent until right before A17 released to experimental when they changed their minds. I liked the fact that using a mod changed that item forever.

    As for damage nerf, the fix for that is to increase the damage bonus for mods.

    I’d like the following:

    Brown and Orange — no mod slots
    Yellow — one mod slot
    Green and Blue— two mod slots
    Purple — three mod slots

    Installing a mod is permanent and adds a heftier damage bonus in addition to its designed bonus.

    No micromanagement, greater variety of gear, tougher choices, more reasons to craft mods. Instead of owning one sledge hammer and rotating through various mods you have several kinds of sledgehammers suited for different tasks.
    Last edited by Roland; 12-19-2019, 03:55 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • RipClaw
    replied
    Originally posted by Katitof View Post
    What are you actually talking about here?
    Unless you are specced into a weapon/tool, it WILL feel bad, regardless of mods. That being said, you can still go by perfectly fine using it.
    I was already level 5 in Miner69 at that time. Nevertheless, the auger felt slow without mods in A17.

    By the way, this did not only affect the auger in A17. All weapons and tools were very weak without mods. Many complained about that. The Fun Pimps reduced the base damage and you had to use mods to get the weapons and tools back to normal damage.

    In A18 the damage is now determined by quality + mods + random stats. The random stats can have a massive effect. For example, I have a Q4 SMG that does more damage than all the Q5 and Q6 SMGs I have found so far.

    Also I'm with Roland on this one, less mod slots and Q6 being loot locked does make for a greater variety of mods instead of packing everything possible into an item.
    But then the base values would have to be increased to compensate for the loss of mod slots. I think that less mod slots means that players are constantly switching mods to customize weapons for the purpose and then complain about micromanagement.

    I understand why the Fun Pimps made Q6 items only lootable but I don't agree with the reasoning.

    The only problem I have with current mods and mod slots is cooling mesh/warm padding not being usable on clothing but locked to armor exclusively.
    We quite agree on that.

    Also, mining perk books make auger OP regardless of its stats when you have 20% chance to OHK any block.
    It took me until day 71 to get all the books from the "Art of Mining" series. Some never get this collection complete. So I wouldn't expect to have that bonus.

    Leave a comment:


  • Katitof
    replied
    Originally posted by RipClaw View Post
    In my opinion the many mod slots are necessary to compensate the nerf that came with the mod slots. If the FP hadn't made the nerf so hard then 1-2 mod slots would be acceptable. With the current base values the many mod slots are simply necessary.

    For example, in A17 I tried a Q6 auger without mods. It was painfully slow. No wonder since the base damage was reduced from 44 to 26. Only when you put the right mods into the auger it became fast again.
    What are you actually talking about here?
    Unless you are specced into a weapon/tool, it WILL feel bad, regardless of mods. That being said, you can still go by perfectly fine using it.

    Also I'm with Roland on this one, less mod slots and Q6 being loot locked does make for a greater variety of mods instead of packing everything possible into an item.

    The only problem I have with current mods and mod slots is cooling mesh/warm padding not being usable on clothing but locked to armor exclusively.

    Also, mining perk books make auger OP regardless of its stats when you have 20% chance to OHK any block.

    Leave a comment:


  • RipClaw
    replied
    Originally posted by Roland View Post
    Honestly, when they first started pitching the idea of attachable mods to weapons I thought there would be 1 or 2 mods granted per weapon. To me, anything more than that is amazeballs. I think limiting the number of mod slots makes for a wider variety of weapons because you can't put everything into one.

    I'm not saying they should reduce it further but it is unfortunate they started with so many and then pared it down to something more reasonable rather starting with just 1 or 2 and then increasing it to where it is now.
    In my opinion the many mod slots are necessary to compensate the nerf that came with the mod slots. If the FP hadn't made the nerf so hard then 1-2 mod slots would be acceptable. With the current base values the many mod slots are simply necessary.

    For example, in A17 I tried a Q6 auger without mods. It was painfully slow. No wonder since the base damage was reduced from 44 to 26. Only when you put the right mods into the auger it became fast again.

    Leave a comment:


  • guardianangelmp
    replied
    Originally posted by Roland View Post

    Maybe the reason for the fly in the ointment feeling is that they didn't add a new tier and new quality level to be the uncraftables but instead shortened the progression and made existing levels the new legendary. I can understand that disappointment for sure. Do you think you would be as upset if they would have left it all the same but added new levels to be the things that were luckbased or would you hate them even then?
    I think this may be the key to the issue. It may be illogical, but the perception can still be of loss.... something that was, now is not. That's why majority of gamers hate nerfs that affect them, are indifferent of ones that don't affect them, and like buffs that affect them.

    I know for myself it would not seem like I lost anything, rather I would have gained something, if they would have added in loot only q7 items and left q6 craftable.


    Originally posted by Roland View Post
    The devs as of now do want us to work towards Tier 2 gear at Quality level 5. That is the current progression arc. Whether they return Quality 6 once legendaries come out or not has not been revealed. The reason they want Legendaries and a Tier 3 version of each piece of gear that is super rare and luckbased is to encourage scavenging and exploring. They don't want the game to be entirely a looter shooter-- they want there to be a space for crafting your way along a progression arc and then super powerful items that you can use to augment your kit but are not intended to fill every slot of your kit. They want you to find some things in one game and other things in subsequent games so that every time you play you are finding something new and different.

    From a survival point of view this creates gamespaces where the player must adapt to the circumstances of the world in which they find themselves-- not always being in control but striving to come through the uncertainties without dying.

    I do completely understand if you just hate it though.

    Cheers
    The problem is q6 items are not "super powerful", but rather a slight bump in power (a convenience) which doesn't give them a reason to be special. They don't have special skins, special graphic effects, a backstory, or even an epic questline to complete to obtain them. They are just slightly more efficient tool that you can find in any old burnt_manor_01.

    There needs to be those special items in game to get people to go out, explore, search, take risks for...... it's just, q6 items don't seem to give me the impression that they are those special items.

    Maybe that's another rub.

    Leave a comment:


  • Roland
    replied
    Originally posted by RipClaw View Post
    It is more or less that.

    Unfortunately, you also have the random stats. I've had multiple times the case that I was happy about a Q6 item but the joy was only short-lived because I noticed that the stats were so much worse than the Q5 item that the extra mod slot wouldn't have compensated that.
    Honestly, when they first started pitching the idea of attachable mods to weapons I thought there would be 1 or 2 mods granted per weapon. To me, anything more than that is amazeballs. I think limiting the number of mod slots makes for a wider variety of weapons because you can't put everything into one.

    I'm not saying they should reduce it further but it is unfortunate they started with so many and then pared it down to something more reasonable rather starting with just 1 or 2 and then increasing it to where it is now.

    Leave a comment:


  • Roland
    replied
    Originally posted by pApA^LeGBa View Post
    I simply don´t like luckbased gameplay.
    I understand that. I'm sorry the game is not to your liking in this regard. In my own opinion it is okay to have luckbased gameplay for non-essential aspects of the game progression. When the Forge Ahead book was a thing that was an example of bad luckbased gameplay because it stopped you from progressing. Now if TFP is intending (and they are) that Tier 2 Gear and Quality 5 marks the end of the progression then making Tier 3 gear and Quality 6 random is perfectly fine. They are awesome things to find. It is exactly why they are in the game-- to put a smile on your face when you get one.

    Maybe the reason for the fly in the ointment feeling is that they didn't add a new tier and new quality level to be the uncraftables but instead shortened the progression and made existing levels the new legendary. I can understand that disappointment for sure. Do you think you would be as upset if they would have left it all the same but added new levels to be the things that were luckbased or would you hate them even then?


    I didn´t wish i had them on this exact day.
    Okay but you did say Day 65 as that was probably where you were in your current game when you posted. When you said there were things you still haven't seen by Day 65 I know you weren't saying you want them easily or during the first week. But come on. You have to admit that you were saying that not seeing them by Day 65 because they can't be crafted at all and are reliant upon luck that may never happen is something you felt was wrong about the game. You felt that you should be able to get them in a playthrough by Day 65 or sooner. Why would you honestly throw out that you haven't seen things by Day 65 if you weren't think that you should have seen them by that time?

    I never accused you of wanting Quality 6 gear early in the game. I just think that you feel you should be able to craft and get anything you want by a point in the game that is at least mid to end and Day 65 is probably right in that zone.


    It´s a frustrating mechanics. I don´t need it easily available, but i want to know that i can work towards something without being dependent on the mercy of RNGesus. What is the point of this mechanic? What was it that TFP is expecting the player to feel with this change? What are they trying to achieve with this?
    We know you are a survival game player so you don't want it easy. I was never accusing you of wanting the game to be easy. You have been complaining about tough survival choices being removed from the game for years now so I would never take you as someone asking for Care Bear mode. The devs as of now do want us to work towards Tier 2 gear at Quality level 5. That is the current progression arc. Whether they return Quality 6 once legendaries come out or not has not been revealed. The reason they want Legendaries and a Tier 3 version of each piece of gear that is super rare and luckbased is to encourage scavenging and exploring. They don't want the game to be entirely a looter shooter-- they want there to be a space for crafting your way along a progression arc and then super powerful items that you can use to augment your kit but are not intended to fill every slot of your kit. They want you to find some things in one game and other things in subsequent games so that every time you play you are finding something new and different.

    From a survival point of view this creates gamespaces where the player must adapt to the circumstances of the world in which they find themselves-- not always being in control but striving to come through the uncertainties without dying.

    I do completely understand if you just hate it though.

    Cheers

    Leave a comment:

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