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  • #31
    Originally posted by ShadesOfKnight View Post
    You're very kind, but giving the Duke superhuman powers of prescience (so he knows which victims will mutate into superzombies and which ones will not), and giving the Duke superhuman powers of control (the ability to keep the superzombies from blowing up as soon as they're turned, destroying his own base) is just plain silly.



    i dont think its "super human powers" i think its more of a psychopath that wants to weaponize the very thing that around him.


    think of it like this. he finds someone, chains/ties them up, equip them with some gear bombs, armor , bladed gauntlets etc, infects them in some way (injecting them with infected blood or some other way), drop them off some were when there turning like a pit or cage. repeat


    hell sounds like something i would do!
    Last edited by Adam the Waster; 01-03-2020, 01:13 AM.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by ShadesOfKnight View Post
      You're very kind, but giving the Duke superhuman powers of prescience (so he knows which victims will mutate into superzombies and which ones will not), and giving the Duke superhuman powers of control (the ability to keep the superzombies from blowing up as soon as they're turned, destroying his own base) is just plain silly.
      You are the only one ascribing superpowers to the Duke. There are ways he could weaponize people with the zombie virus. We already know there is a serum that started the virus. The picture of the scientist in so many homes is the guy responsible for the outbreak. If the Duke has him who knows what else he has been able to get out of the guy. It just takes a bit of imagination. Of course, if you're against the inclusion of demolishers for whatever reason then it also is easy to refuse to imagine how they came to be and just say, "They don't fit! Scope Creep!!!!!"

      Maybe true, but the corollary is also true. Just because they say "crafting will exist" doesn't justify nonsense crafting decisions.
      One man's nonsense is another man's fun...

      Just because they say "there will be zombies" doesn't justify there suddenly being superzombies that have magical powers.
      If they had only said "there will be zombies" you might be right. But they said from the start that there would be special infected and they even listed some examples of what they would add right in their original document. Zombie Cops that vomit block melting acid were in the game from the very start. Screaming scouts and wall climbing spider zombies soon followed. You might as well complain they added an M60 to the lineup of weapons as complain that they added the Demolisher to the lineup of special infected. And as for "suddenly"....Madmole has been talking about adding a tank zombie that does massive structural damage for over 2 years now. There really is nothing suddenly about the Demolishers.

      If this is true, then no one should EVER point at the "easily found roadmap" as justification for ANYTHING... because it evolved privately and by definition that is not an "easily found roadmap." Pick your poison: Either it's easily found and justifies the decisions made, or it's privately edited and we don't get to talk about it.
      When I look at the original roadmap I don't see any real departure from the stated goals. I don't agree with you that additional content within a category that was mentioned in the roadmap is going outside the scope of the game. You want to say that Demolishers are a sign they've gone far afield of where they started. In my opinion, Demolishers are just enriching the category of special infected that ARE mentioned in the roadmap. They keep the details of what they are adding secret until they choose to reveal them but that doesn't mean the original roadmap isn't generally being followed. And they do resist and deny suggestions for features that are not in their original goals. Animal pets, ziplines, fishing, and procedural caves are examples of major features not in their plan but very much requested. Some of those things they looked into and even started experimenting with but ultimately cut them as being beyond the scope of the game.
      Last edited by Roland; 01-03-2020, 03:02 AM.

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      • #33
        **** Duke and **** immersion. This is a point of about simple game balance. I dont give two ****s about the fact I can carry 20 metric tons of rock in the same space as a stack of paper. A true gamer knows that game mechanics is about making the challenge worth it.

        Right now the Demolisher invalidates more than half of the horde defense items put into the game. Thats pretty piss poor game dev right there. And its obvious from your statements that you have an issue with people who build passive defenses, so I can only garner that opinion might be shared with MM as well. Granted, my favorite horde bases are ones where you have to run around like a squirrel juggling between shooting and repairing to just barely keep the horde back.

        The problem is as what people have already said. Instead of slowly and creatively building up a defense that handles the increasing pressure laid down by the hordes, you get forced into using the most basic of defenses, or outright exploits.

        And dont you dare make the mistake that I havent tried dozens of approaches. I have quite few horde designs that handle these Serious Sam ripoffs. And I didnt lazily come up with them using creative mode. My success and failures have been through standard gameplay and grinding resources.

        But as mentioned earlier, all it takes is the kill corridor and 3 blade traps/electric fences, and you can AFK a hundred Demlishers. Or better yet, just dig a hole to bedrock. Who needs to build anything anymore?

        3 years and this is what we get. The modders came up with much better designs than this thing.

        Again, game balance. The effect on the game by adding this particular element has been to remove the ability to use: turrets, mines, bars, steel walls, concrete, junk turrets, and shotguns. And its direct counter is digging a hole in the ground, or even further exploiting AI.

        Good job.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Hazeree View Post
          But as mentioned earlier, all it takes is the kill corridor and 3 blade traps/electric fences, and you can AFK a hundred Demlishers. Or better yet, just dig a hole to bedrock. Who needs to build anything anymore?
          I'd be careful with those blade traps. They could trigger the explosion. Besides, they need constant repair.

          You can put 1/2 blocks on the floor and place the blade traps at a height of 3 blocks so that they only hit the head of the demolisher. But it sometimes happens that the Demolisher gets knocked over by the blade trap and then stands up floating a block high in the air and gets with the chest into the blade trap which can trigger the explosion.

          Blade traps are also very vulnerable to the spit of cops. If you don't constantly repair them, it can happen that the blade traps are destroyed by cops spit.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Hazeree View Post
            And dont you dare make the mistake that I havent tried dozens of approaches.
            Or what, exactly? Good heavens dial it back a bit, dude.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Roland View Post
              You are the only one ascribing superpowers to the Duke. There are ways he could weaponize people with the zombie virus. We already know there is a serum that started the virus. The picture of the scientist in so many homes is the guy responsible for the outbreak. If the Duke has him who knows what else he has been able to get out of the guy. It just takes a bit of imagination. Of course, if you're against the inclusion of demolishers for whatever reason then it also is easy to refuse to imagine how they came to be and just say, "They don't fit! Scope Creep!!!!!"
              It is easy to refuse to imagine it when it requires no imagination and only requires the game itself. If, across all of Navezgane, a player can't find this mythical mechanism that would allow him to weaponize the virus - call it "serum parts," if you really want to fit the game - then the Duke can't either. Imagination is nice, but when it requires one set of global rules for the players and another set of global rules for the imagination, it starts being more "plan 9 from outer space" than any decent kind of imagination.

              PS - If I am the only one ascribing superpowers to the Duke, how the heck did I post this under your name: "Villains like the Duke can be quite beyond our comprehension."


              One man's nonsense is another man's fun...
              True... but the nonsense that sticks is that which is at least consistent to itself - Firefly is a decent example of what I mean about consistency, while Star Wars has become the kind of punchline of something that doesn't.

              When I look at the original roadmap I don't see any real departure from the stated goals. I don't agree with you that additional content within a category that was mentioned in the roadmap is going outside the scope of the game. You want to say that Demolishers are a sign they've gone far afield of where they started. In my opinion, Demolishers are just enriching the category of special infected that ARE mentioned in the roadmap.
              Then by that logic any sort of fireball-flinging magical lich that MadMole can come up with is just "enriching," not "scope creep." I'm sorry, but that kind of apologetics isn't what I think of when I think of "enriching."

              They keep the details of what they are adding secret until they choose to reveal them but that doesn't mean the original roadmap isn't generally being followed.
              But it does mean that the "easily found roadmap" is not necessarily a valid argument for what is and is not part of the design. I'd accept that it's someone else's game and we're just living with it - but that means we shouldn't have to hear any defense other than "it's his." The rest is just apologetics.
              Last edited by ShadesOfKnight; 01-03-2020, 05:54 PM.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Adam the Waster View Post
                i dont think its "super human powers" i think its more of a psychopath that wants to weaponize the very thing that around him.


                think of it like this. he finds someone, chains/ties them up, equip them with some gear bombs, armor , bladed gauntlets etc, infects them in some way (injecting them with infected blood or some other way), drop them off some were when there turning like a pit or cage. repeat


                hell sounds like something i would do!
                I don't deny it sounds like fun, but in the case of the Demolishers it doesn't make sense. He'd have to strap suicide vests to a lot of people, because he wouldn't know which ones would become tanks and which would be just "normal" zombies, and then he'd have to build a containment facility that defies the rules under which we build defensive structures... Adamantium cages, maybe?

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by ShadesOfKnight View Post
                  I don't deny it sounds like fun, but in the case of the Demolishers it doesn't make sense. He'd have to strap suicide vests to a lot of people, because he wouldn't know which ones would become tanks and which would be just "normal" zombies, and then he'd have to build a containment facility that defies the rules under which we build defensive structures... Adamantium cages, maybe?

                  MAGIC duuuuuu



                  but i really dont know. maybe he hanged them up in the air and strapped it on?

                  i still believe though that its a military ordnance's worker due to the armor

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by ShadesOfKnight View Post
                    I don't deny it sounds like fun, but in the case of the Demolishers it doesn't make sense. He'd have to strap suicide vests to a lot of people, because he wouldn't know which ones would become tanks and which would be just "normal" zombies, and then he'd have to build a containment facility that defies the rules under which we build defensive structures... Adamantium cages, maybe?
                    I was going to snark about your lack of imagination, but lo! There is no lack - look at you go! Maybe he does try his twisted machinations on hundreds or thousands of poor survivors only to get a few Hulking Brutes (as he calls them)! Or maybe he's refined his process to a precursor and an activator, such that if the precursor doesn't produce immediate growth of the subject, the activator is withheld and the test subject is sent for extra irradiation to become a glowing zombie?

                    Adamantium - good idea! Or maybe the vests have a remote arming system which he activates after he sends his minions on their path, so they are i no danger of exploding until he is safely ensconced with his hairless cat* in his underground lair just outside the border of your world?

                    *NB: all cats in the zombie apocalypse are hairless, due to radiation, so really The Duke's cat is just a normal cat.
                    Last edited by Boidster; 01-04-2020, 01:44 AM.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Viktoriusiii View Post
                      I agree... mostly...
                      I do like the concept of the demolisher. But I already explained why he is not good design, since he is everything:
                      He is a tank, he has dmg and he has an ability to demolish bases.
                      He should have one or two of those things. But he is just an all in one boss.

                      At least they already nerfed him by not letting him explode anymore when he is already dead. So "counterplay" is to kill him quicker then he can detonate. But since he has massive HP and armor, that negates that counterplay.
                      If there was ever only one of them... but sometimes there is multiple.


                      So first what I like:
                      I like the mixup. I like that there can be something that can ruin plans.
                      I like his looks and I like his detonation dmg.
                      I also like that he is only coming very lategame, so you should have tools to deal with him (somewhat)

                      What would I do to fix him:
                      a - reduce his HP/armor, but increase his speed slightly (more like an urukhai suicide guy in LotR)
                      b - Make his C4 either easier OR harder to trigger by trap. Somehow you never know if a trap (blade or dart) will or will not trigger it and it is in a weird spot where sometimes he will blow up and sometimes he wont.


                      z - rework him into a fully blown tank, where he has 5x the hp/armor that he has now, make him 10x slower but leave his melee damage, remove his C4 and give it to something small and nimble that can run at the base with full speed.

                      I like this the most, but I know they wont ever do something this massive for what they consider "little change".
                      No troll;
                      Steel reinforced concrete can take 2-3 blasts from his bomb and still be standing.
                      Turrets wreck that zombie still.
                      AP rounds from your firearm FURTHER devistate this creature.
                      Its more about having multiple layers of fire points rather than building an impermeable wall now.

                      -Best wishes in your further attempts survivor.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Boidster View Post
                        The Duke's cat is just a normal cat

                        with armor and a bomb on it. its the last boss of the game!

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Adam the Waster View Post
                          with armor and a bomb on it. its the last boss of the game!
                          How about a spoiler alert, dude. ;-)

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Boidster View Post
                            How about a spoiler alert, dude. ;-)
                            no he has a pet mountain lion, with a Armored vest and spikes. his name is muffin

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Pichii View Post
                              No troll;
                              Steel reinforced concrete can take 2-3 blasts from his bomb and still be standing.
                              2-3 blasts are not much if you consider that you get 10-20 demolishers per horde in higher gamestages.

                              Turrets wreck that zombie still.
                              And most likely trigger the explosion.

                              AP rounds from your firearm FURTHER devastate this creature.
                              If you can make AP ammo. You need a book to make AP ammo. The trader also sells AP Ammo but only in small quantities.

                              Its more about having multiple layers of fire points rather than building an impermeable wall now.
                              The problem here is that you cannot make a base any size. On the one hand, more blocks also mean a greater loss of FPS and on the other hand a large base can cause problems with the pathing of the zombies.

                              At the beginning of A17 players built so-called labyrinth bases in which the zombies were sent through long corridors. There were several points where the zombies could be shot with guns or you used traps.

                              But the AI was changed so that the zombies take the shortcut through the wall if the path is too long. So the labyrinth bases became useless because the zombies usually broke through the walls.

                              Basically it is all about finding a base form that is effective but has a reasonable consumption of resources.
                              You can defeat any horde if you throw enough resources at it, but it's no fun if you spend most of the week collecting the resources needed for the next horde.

                              For example, I have a base that works mainly with dart traps and electrical fences. Per horde this base consumes more than 90000 iron. This is not a big problem for me as I have a large production and like to be in the mine. However, if you don't like mining you would not use such a base.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by RipClaw View Post
                                For example, I have a base that works mainly with dart traps and electrical fences. Per horde this base consumes more than 90000 iron. This is not a big problem for me as I have a large production and like to be in the mine. However, if you don't like mining you would not use such a base.
                                So, with the caveat that my base has never been destroyed by a Demolisher, I'd like to say that the above description doesn't seem quite so bad? I'm not arguing that balancing isn't required (again, never had a base ruined by a Demo), but the general idea that

                                I ARE MINER
                                and
                                I LIEK QUESTS

                                would need to have somewhat different approaches to base designs doesn't seem to be a Bad Thing on its face? I say that as a player who likes mining (but also plays about 70/30 co-op - that is, 70% of the time I'm in the game alone, picking at my rocks and 30% of the time my co-op partner is in game and we're questing or prepping the base for horde night).

                                If the only way to defeat the Demo is to have a 90,000-iron-eating base, then yeah the non-miner is screwed. But would run-n-gun work? A pit base? Simpler labrynths? What about using concrete as the primary building material, would that be effective if there were several ablative layers to the base? So the non-miner could produce a couple thousand concrete (just sand and rock after all) for repairs and be on his/her way questing or whatever.

                                Anywho, my point is only that I don't think all base designs - or really all horde-survival techniques - need to be effective for all player types. The quester maybe should NOT be able to build the auto-trapped fortress, but instead must rely on better personal firepower (from all those quest rewards). The miner won't necessarily have the guns, but will have massive resources to repair and resupply ammo.

                                I dunno, maybe the first time my base is demolished, I'll be back here with **** Duke and **** immersion, get rid of the ******* Demolishers! :-)

                                I will say that after reading these demo threads, I'm working on a pit base design for horde night. Double-walled concrete pit. If they blow up, eh I've got 10,000 concrete banked away for Day 36.

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