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    Originally posted by Ac75 View Post
    The defense of the current AI is rediculous
    If it was the final version I would agree with you.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Matt 1977 View Post
      After 15 months of staying away from the forums , i return to the exact reason why i left in the first place. Constant and repeating negativity in just about every thread about the same bloody thing.
      Welcome back! Do what I do, stop reading the negative posts once they start repeating themselves...lol

      Comment


        Originally posted by Matt 1977 View Post
        After 15 months of staying away from the forums , i return to the exact reason why i left in the first place. Constant and repeating negativity in just about every thread about the same bloody thing.
        So people just spose to pay and not voice their concerns and thoughts. So people repeat it. Doesnt mean anything but passion of what that person feels etc.

        People have serious doubts on the current path of the game. Yeh you get some fanbois on their knees praising the game and derailing threads. But wont stop people giving their opinion. Its occurred since the beginning of this game. We are in a discussions thread. And you have just as many positives as those that dont see it as the greatest game anymore. Rather then look at things as negatives see them as their views and they paid to express their views.

        But not gonna stop these threads on trying to improve the game to how they feel it was or is gonna be.

        If you dont like it you dont have to read it or participate no one is forcing you.

        :-)
        Last edited by stallionsden; 02-19-2020, 04:37 AM.

        Comment


          My concern is that the A17-onward pathing system requires every NPC to share the same pathing grid. That means you can't have NPCs that sometimes know the best way to get from point A to point B, and sometimes take an inefficent path. It would have been cool if the way zombies tried breaking blocks based off flawed zombie logic, rather than just "whichever block has the least health", but then the bandits would have to share that logic. I'm guessing materially challenged bandits are a deal-breaker.
          Last edited by Dimpy; 02-19-2020, 04:22 AM.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Dimpy View Post
            My concern is that the A17-onward pathing system requires every NPC to share the same pathing grid. That means you can't have NPCs that sometimes know the best way to get from point A to point B, and sometimes take an inefficent path. It would have been cool if the way zombies tried breaking blocks based off flawed zombie logic, rather than just "whichever block has the least health", but then the bandits would have to share that logic. I'm guessing materially challenged bandits are a deal-breaker.
            Nah, why would they have to share it?

            Comment


              Originally posted by RestInPieces View Post
              Nah, why would they have to share it?
              They all share the same global A* node graph. That's how its so efficient.

              Comment


                They might share the same grid but the knowledge of the length of the path can vary. It already does. Some zombies know the long pathway to get to the player whereas others “forget” the long path and go into destruction mode because they can no longer see a way to reach the player. It still needs work but there is good potential.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by meganoth View Post
                  But Bub or Michonnes zombies are the exceptions
                  Of course. I said exactly that a few posts back. The "basic" zombie is what I insist it is. All the variations are exceptions.

                  Originally posted by meganoth View Post
                  that overcame the urge that generally exists in the zombies in Day in the Dead and TWD. The urge in them still exists or existed at one time. As you yourself said "There is a reason why they behave like so, and that they behave like so is - within the story - remarkable. Unusual. Not normal.". The urge works as a common general expectation, while for example supernatural abilities or higher intelligence is sometimes a general feature of zombie variants in movies and comics.
                  Absolutely.

                  Originally posted by meganoth View Post
                  The intention of the devs seems quite clear from the current state of the game and it is only of academic interest whether that intention was there from the start or came about because a rewrite of the AI code was necessary and/or their behaviour was thought as too simple. Sure, they need the story to explain the behaviour somewhat consistently, which isn't really the hard part. The hard part is writing the AI to apply that behaviour consistently while running on any machine that conforms to the current minimal hardware speccs. And that effort is still ongoing.
                  I don't really find the intentions that clear, I don't follow these Dev Diary threads, though, maybe it becomes more obvious there. From my perspective, it kinda seems that their game design is following their problem solving, and then the lore will be stitched on top of it all. Like the perks, first they invest all that time to design LBD-skills, while they already wanted everything to be a perk? Implausible. They originally wanted an LBD/perk hybrid, ran into problems, redesigned. The lack of outside zombies seems to root in the issue that they can't have the number of sleppers they want at the same time. The existence of treasure rooms seems like a necessity if you want all those sleepers. And the current overly intelligent (actually clairvoyant) zombies follows the problems that pathfinding caused before.

                  I could go on, and again: That's how it looks to me.

                  Originally posted by meganoth View Post
                  An AI that emulates A16 by simply running at the position of the player and hitting on anything between seems something that could still be done very easy by Fataal. So the more intelligent behaviour is at least at the moment surely intentional, probably because it gets some tower defense gameplay into the horde night.
                  The issue of zombies standing below the player position all night was discussed for quite a while, but yeah, from a TD-perspective the forseeable zombies do make some sense, but I still find it too forseeable, thus way too easy. They should not just all follow the same (forseeable) path.


                  Originally posted by meganoth View Post
                  Personally I'm all for the more intelligent zombies of A17/A18.
                  Would it not be better to introduce a new type of enemy that is intelligent? I don't mind intelligent enemies, but I also like my dumb Romero-zombies. I don't want them removed. Do you not like them? Or would you agree we should have both?

                  Originally posted by meganoth View Post
                  I never wanted to build bases in A16 because there was no point in making more complicated structures as a box with concentric rings of traps. Since A17 I build horde bases, each time something different.
                  If you enjoy designing these kill corridors, myself I find that way too easy. But then again, as I mentioned a couple times before: I'm not much of a builder, and now, I have to build way less to get myself a defendable base than with the old AI. A staircase with a catwalk that can literally be build in one day - like in 101 videos you can find on youtube.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Roland View Post
                    I love the zombie AI and pathfinding for how it enhances POI exploration. This is a separate issue for me from whether current POI design is better or worse than it once was or than it could be. I like the enemies being relentless and that they can find their way back to me while I'm exploring.
                    So you don't kill them all? When I follow the designated path, I run into all of them - pocket after pocket (aka "sleeper volume") - and kill them. If I don't, for example when I go straight for the treasure room, zombies outside the pocket(s) I enter don't even wake up. Not sure what you're refering to with "back to me". Back from where? Anyways, outside horde night, the AI does not bother me. There were weird cases in A17, though, I don't know if they are gone in A18 or I just didn't run into similar circumstances.

                    Originally posted by Roland View Post
                    I recognize the weakness of the AI and pathfinding for horde night. It is easily exploitable and you do have to build with a mind to how you know they will behave. I don't personally take advantage of exploits and so still have fun on horde nights but I definitely would like for them to fix the flaws.

                    I see the current pathfinding and AI as a better starting point than what we had before. I hope they will keep working at obfuscating what the zombies actually know and work on making them seem more organic than programmed.
                    So you're on board with the critics. Sounds much like it also in other comments.

                    Question, though: How do you decide what's an "exploit"? Compared to a good design?

                    Originally posted by Roland View Post
                    Then you're reading me wrong. Of course I want these things discussed.
                    I might read you wrong, but maybe you're expressing yourself mistakable. Or it's a mix. Of both.

                    Originally posted by Roland View Post
                    What we have now is neither a complete representation of their vision nor is it at a point where it is stuck by technical limitations. It is the early days of their development of a new system where they start out with zombies having perfect knowledge and then work to limit that fact and obfuscate that fact from the player.
                    Yes, yes, that's what we are judging, if we get something else, we will change our opinions accordingly.

                    Originally posted by Roland View Post
                    A17 was the first version and A18 is the second version. I think that A18 is better than A17. If someone thinks that A18 is the culmination and intended stopping point for how the zombies will behave then that is a misconception but it does seem by the way some post that they in fact do believe that TFP are done with zombie AI.
                    I also am under the impression that A18 AI is not as absurd as A17, yes.

                    Originally posted by Roland View Post
                    faatal did a lot of work and he has more to do but he has been tasked elsewhere and so for the time being this is what we have. If the anger over what we have right now is rooted in thinking that what we have is the intended final product then let me reassure that it is not.
                    Good good, I too think that the AI needs more work, same page, that's great, though, waitaminute, "anger"? No anger, Roland, just "just saying".

                    Originally posted by Roland View Post
                    As to what their final vision is for zombies is they want them to be challenging and fun. They don't want them getting stuck on decorations. They want them to be able to navigate effectively. They don't want them easily defeated by the first bloodmoon and then never pose a challenge ever again. They want to fix endless behavior loops. They do have truly intelligent enemies planned in the form of bandits so once bandits are in maybe zombies will be dumbified even more so there is a nice spread of enemy intelligence level.
                    Once more I agree, zombies should navigate effectively, blood moon should be a challenge, zombies should not be intelligent, but it would be great if other enemies, that are intelligent, would be added.

                    Originally posted by Roland View Post
                    In the early days of the game most of these types of conversations about the immersion breaking behavior of zombies was focused on the fact that they could break down wood, concrete, and steel blocks with their bare hands and were upset for that reason that TFP called them zombies. I'll put my own Lorax face on and say that it seems that most players have come to finally accept that behavior as the normal behavior of TFP's zombies.
                    There is actually noone in this thread who is upset over the zombies being called zombies. That's either a misconception or a provocative, fact-twisting narrative. You decide.

                    And while it is being mentioned repeatedly, that it's unrealistic that zombies can break blocks made of materials that are harder than flesh and bones (which it obviously is), I have not seen anybody honestly complain about it, like I see ppl complain about the current AI. Zombies have to be able to break blocks, otherwise there is no game (just like survivors in movies often behave silly, cuz otherwise there would be no movie). The current AI, though, is not necessary, the game did not have it until recently.

                    But it looks like we're all on the same page. The new AI sucks. Here and there are good things, the former bugs are gone, if you say so, they are more efficient in navigating through POIs (can't say I notice that, cuz I kill em all), but horde night needs work. No enemy - in my opinion - should be able to see through walls and know exactly the path that leads to the player, including which blocks are the weakest.

                    Originally posted by Roland View Post
                    I think that the general populace would look at anything that appears to be a zombie and call it a zombie regardless of behavior.
                    But the question is what does the general populace have in mind when you say "zombie". Something else than when you say "vampire". What? Creatures that ride horses and fire rifles? Creatures that spit acid and explode? Creatures that are highly intelligent? Solve crimes? Seek romance? No. They have in mind what we - with a very few exceptions - see in the Romero movies and - with zero exceptions - the TWD series. We all have that in mind when we just hear "it's a zombie game/movie/comic/book". You know, "all (not all though)".

                    However, your thought inspired one of my own: It should be plausible that creators call anything a zombie, that has at least one characteristic of the old Romero zombies. And that's why. Though that, yet again, might be done to provide the consumer with a familiar label to increase sales.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Roland View Post
                      It is only hardcore zombie fans that get upset when they compare anything that claims to be a zombie to whatever cannon they are going by. Regiular people standing around water coolers love the MCU and discuss what they like. Comic Book fans standing around in comic book stores likely hate the MCU and discuss every way it falls short of the cannon.
                      Now we're entering the era of the "ultra hardcore zombie fan", that is some sort of very angry and sensitive extremist who can't be reasoned with and who - thankfully - also isn't of any relevance to anybody but themselves. An odditiy. lol Though I kinda can't help the impression, that I'm categorized as one. *sigh*

                      Anyways: I think of all people, it's the hardcore ultra fans who know that all kinds of creatures are being called zombies. Such fans, though, must indeed be disappointed when a certain game or movie features a flavor they dislike. Or when the zombies of their favorite game are being changed to a flavor they dislike.

                      Just, then again, like anybody else who happens to dislike a certain type of creature. Noone likes it all, right.

                      Originally posted by Roland View Post
                      Personally I don't think TFP should worry about ultra zombie fans but should make their monsters however they wish. The ultra zombie fans will be horrified but everyone else will shrug and not really care that TFP labels what they have created as "zombies".
                      The horrified ultra fans, Roland. Are you serious. As I said, yes, any creator should make their monster however they wish and call them whatever they want.

                      Originally posted by Roland View Post
                      I'm not an ultra zombie fan, myself, so I am pleased with every new special ability they add. I'm glad they can dig and pound their way through blocks. I'm glad they are better at pathfinding especially while exploring POI's. Those aspects that make them predictable enough to be exploited in ridiculous ways I expect to be fixed at some point. I don't think they are at the point where they are stumped by technical limitations. I fully believe they will return to look at zombie behavior and polish it up and make it better-- perhaps at the same time they bring bandits in.
                      As an "ultra hardcore zombie fan" (minus the mental disease (I hope)), I too am pleased with diversity among the enemies of a video game, but I also would very much like to have my favorite flavor of zombies in there. 7dtd used to have that, but - this is where you can mention the alpha disclaimer once more - unfortunately, it's gradually being replaced by something (I consider) silly characteristics when they (the characteristics) are being attributed to - so called - "zombies". Particularly the high intelligence. It's fine to have highly intelligent enemies and spice things up that way, you can even call them "zombies", but I want my Romero-zombies in the mix as well. And if you asked me, and if we would just have a nerdy pop culture discussion, then yeah, I think these highly intelligent enemies should not be (called) zombies, but maybe some form of mutations or demonic creatures or simply "bandits".

                      Originally posted by Roland View Post
                      Any lay person looking at our game on a youtube video and seeing the enemies in action would immediately call this game a zombie game. The only people saying that it should not be called a zombie game any longer are "the experts" who don't agree with what they can do. I don't even disagree with their anger as they are the experts. I just don't think that TFP should concern themselves with it whenever they add the next special zombie ability.
                      Provocation? Misconception? I'm interested.

                      Originally posted by Roland View Post
                      You are supposed to bar the windows and doors because they are the weak points. Zombies should be attacking everywhere and it is the ones who happen to chance upon the door or window that attack those weak points. But for zombies to target them at the exclusion of other parts of a structure is exactly the same thing that happens now. I'm not trolling and I am serious. In the old code their AI priority was doors.

                      So...did you bar the doors and windows because you knew they were weak points that need reinforcement or did you bar the doors and windows because you knew the zombie AI targeted those types of blocks first? For anyone paying attention from A1-A17 it was the latter.
                      Actually, zombies go for light, sound and smell, so attacking the brightest, loudest and smelliest points first just makes sense. It is expectable zombie intelligence and it's fine that we know that it is (of course) programmed like that. And that's a good reason why they would attack windows and doors. Makes sense. Zombies might also attack walls, but - why? It needs a reason. What drives it? How is a zombie attracted by a wall? It only makes sense on horde night, when the zombie - sorta magically - knows where the players are and goes for them in a straight line. If there is a wall between zombie and player, the zombie would attack the wall. Otherwise, a zombie would always follow the player in some way. See that the player went through a door, see the player through a door or window, smell the player, hear the player. Through openings. Or a zombie would see a player on a roof, for example, go straight to the building, run into a wall and start... fiddling about. And that way, somehow circle the building, slide along the wall, and then find a door, where it will naturally going through or smell something, hear something.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                        So you don't kill them all? When I follow the designated path, I run into all of them - pocket after pocket (aka "sleeper volume") - and kill them. If I don't, for example when I go straight for the treasure room, zombies outside the pocket(s) I enter don't even wake up. Not sure what you're refering to with "back to me". Back from where?
                        I think I know what Roland means. I recently took the plunge and edited the spawning.xml to make 3 changes:

                        a) I massively increased the number of zombies that spawn in the wild
                        b) I massively decreased the respawn time of wild zombies
                        c) I massively increased the zombies' perception (distance over which they can detect the player - thru sight or sound? not sure).

                        I must say this has transformed the game utterly. It's fantastic now. SOOOO much better. One of the main effects of these changes is when exploring POIs. As soon as you are inside and following the path, there is a high chance the many zombies will spawn outside in the wild and immediately perceive the player's sounds inside. This will make them head INTO that POI (probably by the same way in the player took due to the path-finding, though some hammer straight through the weaker walls) and then track the player down inside, thus coming up BEHIND the general exploration track. With the respawn so brief this can happen multiple times in larger POIs and greatly increases the tension. We are currently 2 player co-op at gamestage 300+ and this makes POIs absolutely chaotic and scary. Love it.

                        It is the one instance where I celebrate the A17 "intelligent" path-finding AI for adding a great deal to the game. On horde night? No, it's a disaster. But when exploring POIs it's fantastic. Still immersive, and still feels like how zombies would act (because they are not having to evaluate any block strength, the path to the player is typically clear - unless he's shutting doors as he goes even then they will come through the doors which feels "correct").

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                          Of course. I said exactly that a few posts back. The "basic" zombie is what I insist it is. All the variations are exceptions.



                          Absolutely.



                          I don't really find the intentions that clear, I don't follow these Dev Diary threads, though, maybe it becomes more obvious there. From my perspective, it kinda seems that their game design is following their problem solving, and then the lore will be stitched on top of it all. Like the perks, first they invest all that time to design LBD-skills, while they already wanted everything to be a perk? Implausible. They originally wanted an LBD/perk hybrid, ran into problems, redesigned. The lack of outside zombies seems to root in the issue that they can't have the number of sleppers they want at the same time. The existence of treasure rooms seems like a necessity if you want all those sleepers. And the current overly intelligent (actually clairvoyant) zombies follows the problems that pathfinding caused before.

                          I could go on, and again: That's how it looks to me.
                          I see LBD or perks as a detail implementation of the higher goal "RPG system". If a game developer designs the 50th copy of a traditional game he probably has a design document with every perk listed one month after starting development. If a game developer wants to do an innovative game his design documents probably specifiy only high-level goals and maybe ideas of actual implementations to try. So they tried LBD then a mix, then perks. If a developer has the time and money, I see no problem with that.
                          Existence of treasure rooms seems a decision independent of sleepers but a consequence of a single path dungeon design.
                          Lack of outside zombies is very clearly a technical limitation. And I don't think optimizations will bring that much here, but the planned encounter system looks promising and a slider for max zombies is a neccessity.

                          Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                          The issue of zombies standing below the player position all night was discussed for quite a while, but yeah, from a TD-perspective the forseeable zombies do make some sense, but I still find it too forseeable, thus way too easy. They should not just all follow the same (forseeable) path.




                          Would it not be better to introduce a new type of enemy that is intelligent? I don't mind intelligent enemies, but I also like my dumb Romero-zombies. I don't want them removed. Do you not like them? Or would you agree we should have both?
                          Bandits are on the roadmap and they surely will be the most intelligent type in the game, I don't know how low basic zombies will go in dumbness once bandits are in. I would have no problem if they never go dumber than today but I also wouldn't mind if the lowest zombies are dumber than now. Provided there are enough zombies to follow paths so kill corridors and elaborate designs make sense before lvl 60.

                          I don't view Romero-zombies as the central definition of zombieness anymore and couldn't care less if any zombie conforms or not conforms to that definition. And I bet 90% of all players under 30 won't even really know what a Romero type zombie is. I.e. they would not classify a running zombie as a slightly aberrant zombie, it might be as typical as a shambling one for them.

                          Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                          If you enjoy designing these kill corridors, myself I find that way too easy. But then again, as I mentioned a couple times before: I'm not much of a builder, and now, I have to build way less to get myself a defendable base than with the old AI. A staircase with a catwalk that can literally be build in one day - like in 101 videos you can find on youtube.
                          So it seems we are both fine with the state of horde night zombies as it is.
                          Last edited by meganoth; 02-19-2020, 06:59 PM.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                            So you don't kill them all? When I follow the designated path, I run into all of them - pocket after pocket (aka "sleeper volume") - and kill them. If I don't, for example when I go straight for the treasure room, zombies outside the pocket(s) I enter don't even wake up. Not sure what you're refering to with "back to me". Back from where? Anyways, outside horde night, the AI does not bother me. There were weird cases in A17, though, I don't know if they are gone in A18 or I just didn't run into similar circumstances.
                            I don't follow the designated path very often. I take it seriously that this is a voxel world and I enjoy making my own path. Also I have greatly increased the outdoor spawns so there is often a few zombies that enter the POI from the outside. Finally, one of my favorite things to do is knock back a zombie near a ledge and see them ragdoll over the side and fall below. Sometimes these guys work their way back to my location which is awesome (imo)

                            So you're on board with the critics. Sounds much like it also in other comments.

                            Question, though: How do you decide what's an "exploit"? Compared to a good design?
                            I'm on board with the criticisms that matches my own preferences. I don't agree that A18 is a step backwards. I think it is a much better starting place than what we had but I would be disappointed if it turned out to be the final version. I'm hopeful that they can solve the issues that plague the current system. My biggest disappointment, if you'd like to know, is that before they added the group damage multiplier the zombies tended to pile up on each other. There were times that they would pyramid high enough to crest over the roof of a Shamway store. After they added the multiplier the zombies would bore through too quickly so they wouldn't pyramid as much. This was all pre-A17 release.

                            An exploit in my mind is something that is too simply accomplished without risk or very much effort to match the reward gained by doing it. Also using game functions in ways not intended qualifies no matter how much effort it takes. So using any convoluted method to look through the terrain is an exploit/cheat because the intention is clearly that we shouldn't be able to do it. Each person has to decide for themselves what is an exploit and if they are playing Single Player they are allowed to do whatever is fun, imo.

                            Yes, yes, that's what we are judging, if we get something else, we will change our opinions accordingly.
                            Yes, but there is usually a difference in leeway granted when judging something that is a work in progress vs final product. Some seem to me to be judging by the standard of final product for some reason. But maybe I'm reading them wrong...

                            Good good, I too think that the AI needs more work, same page, that's great, though, waitaminute, "anger"? No anger, Roland, just "just saying".
                            Sorry, I wasn't referring to you. I can think of at least two people by name who have responded in this thread clearly out of anger regarding the current status. You know them too. You referred to them when stating that sometimes people say things in their passion that shouldn't be held against them.

                            There is actually noone in this thread who is upset over the zombies being called zombies. That's either a misconception or a provocative, fact-twisting narrative. You decide.
                            There was one by my count (Prodigy) so if I'm wrong that would be option one of your two choices.

                            And while it is being mentioned repeatedly, that it's unrealistic that zombies can break blocks made of materials that are harder than flesh and bones (which it obviously is), I have not seen anybody honestly complain about it, like I see ppl complain about the current AI. Zombies have to be able to break blocks, otherwise there is no game (just like survivors in movies often behave silly, cuz otherwise there would be no movie). The current AI, though, is not necessary, the game did not have it until recently.
                            Perhaps you were not yet a member of the community to be able to see the complaints. It came up quite a bit and they didn't like being told it was obviously necessary for gameplay. But I already agreed that these days you hardly ever see anyone complain about zombies being able to break things. I think the current AI is necessary so I disagree with you. It has its problems but as a starting place it is better than the old and will eventually become better than the old in all ways (thats hope talking)

                            But it looks like we're all on the same page. The new AI sucks. Here and there are good things, the former bugs are gone, if you say so, they are more efficient in navigating through POIs (can't say I notice that, cuz I kill em all), but horde night needs work. No enemy - in my opinion - should be able to see through walls and know exactly the path that leads to the player, including which blocks are the weakest.
                            Not quite the same page but close enough I suppose. We traded old problems for new problems and as long as the new problems get fixed I'll be happy. I disagree completely about your assessment of AI. It really should be able to see through walls and see all pathways and have perfect information on the health of blocks etc. But the developers MUST then limit and obfuscate that perfect knowledge through intentional "mistakes" in order to make them seem organic and normal to the player.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                              Now we're entering the era of the "ultra hardcore zombie fan", that is some sort of very angry and sensitive extremist who can't be reasoned with and who - thankfully - also isn't of any relevance to anybody but themselves. An odditiy. lol Though I kinda can't help the impression, that I'm categorized as one. *sigh*

                              Anyways: I think of all people, it's the hardcore ultra fans who know that all kinds of creatures are being called zombies. Such fans, though, must indeed be disappointed when a certain game or movie features a flavor they dislike. Or when the zombies of their favorite game are being changed to a flavor they dislike.

                              Just, then again, like anybody else who happens to dislike a certain type of creature. Noone likes it all, right.



                              The horrified ultra fans, Roland. Are you serious. As I said, yes, any creator should make their monster however they wish and call them whatever they want.



                              As an "ultra hardcore zombie fan" (minus the mental disease (I hope)), I too am pleased with diversity among the enemies of a video game, but I also would very much like to have my favorite flavor of zombies in there. 7dtd used to have that, but - this is where you can mention the alpha disclaimer once more - unfortunately, it's gradually being replaced by something (I consider) silly characteristics when they (the characteristics) are being attributed to - so called - "zombies". Particularly the high intelligence. It's fine to have highly intelligent enemies and spice things up that way, you can even call them "zombies", but I want my Romero-zombies in the mix as well. And if you asked me, and if we would just have a nerdy pop culture discussion, then yeah, I think these highly intelligent enemies should not be (called) zombies, but maybe some form of mutations or demonic creatures or simply "bandits".
                              First of all I wasn't including you at all in the group of people who nerd out over zombie lore. I never said "ultra hardcore fans like you". I talked about them as a third party. When I post it is often keeping in mind what I have read all over the forum. Maybe it is a bit confusing that I respond based on outside sources from this particular thread but that's what I do. I'll try to note it when I do it.

                              Secondly, I wasn't intending it to be pejorative at all. You are adding that flavor into it. I never talked about mental disease at all. You are twisting what I said. It is a fact that anyone who is a fan (fanatic) of a particular thing will be more critical and less forgiving of its portrayal. Gun Nuts get upset about guns in 7 Days to Die. Zombie Philes get upset and particular about what constitutes a zombie. My kids are Harry Potter freaks and were way more critical of the movies than I was. But I often hate a movie if I've read the book first and loved the book version. None of these people necessarily have mental illness. They are simply super passionate about their preferred material.

                              Provocation? Misconception? I'm interested.
                              I choose your misconception that I was referring to you which led to your provocation of accusing me of assigning mental derangement to ultra hardcore fans of things.

                              Actually, zombies go for light, sound and smell, so attacking the brightest, loudest and smelliest points first just makes sense.
                              Are you talking about real zombies or the code for the zombies in this game? The code for this game has nothing to do with smell and everything to do with sight and sound. Light only figures into making you more visible but they are not coded to be attracted to light. They aren't even coded to be attracted specifically to doors any more-- although they used be.

                              It is expectable zombie intelligence and it's fine that we know that it is (of course) programmed like that. And that's a good reason why they would attack windows and doors. Makes sense. Zombies might also attack walls, but - why? It needs a reason. What drives it? How is a zombie attracted by a wall? It only makes sense on horde night, when the zombie - sorta magically - knows where the players are and goes for them in a straight line. If there is a wall between zombie and player, the zombie would attack the wall. Otherwise, a zombie would always follow the player in some way. See that the player went through a door, see the player through a door or window, smell the player, hear the player. Through openings. Or a zombie would see a player on a roof, for example, go straight to the building, run into a wall and start... fiddling about. And that way, somehow circle the building, slide along the wall, and then find a door, where it will naturally going through or smell something, hear something.
                              I agree that if there is a plausible explanation provided for why they attack any particular block and if the programming can be done in a way that makes them behave like instinctive creatures that are attracted by smell, sound, and sight that would be ideal. I also acknowledge we aren't there yet.
                              Last edited by Roland; 02-19-2020, 07:04 PM.

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                                Last edited by HungryZombie; 02-20-2020, 02:52 AM.

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