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Cheese Quiz: POI Clearing

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    #16
    Thanks everyone for voting and responding. Great discussion and I'm not even being sarcastic. I lern stuf.

    Roland's comment made me think about my own rubric for identifying "cheese". I started from a point of "there is no cheese except cheating" (i.e. exploiting obvious game bugs and oh BTW funky AI != a bug) and ended up with this:

    If the survivor is using knowledge or metadata that he/she should not have access to, that is a key indicator of cheese.

    And but so, some responses:

    Originally posted by Crater Creator View Post
    I must admit, once I got a gyrocopter I couldn't resist landing on Tier 5 buildings that had a clear pile of loot on the roof
    I absolutely will do this. And by my own rubric, this is not cheese. If the survivor can fly above the buildings and scope out valuable caches of survival equipment, landing and pilfering the loot is completely acceptable. Hopefully the defending zombies put up a fight.

    Originally posted by Crater Creator View Post
    The solution is to randomize POIs. Instead of monolithic buildings where the 'one true path' is the same every time, we need variation for all these buildings to have replayability.
    What a great project for the POI designers who built Compopack - take all of the stock POIs and create 2 or 3 variants of each. Just tweak sleeper, loot, and OTP locations. Probably take a fraction of the time of designing a new POI from scratch.

    Originally posted by Crater Creator View Post
    The rookie mistake is finding fault with the player(s) leveraging that cheese, instead of with the game.
    This my thinking regarding AI pathing. If zombies are stupid and I can use that to my advantage, great. Passes my rubric since the survivor can observe zombie behavior and craft defenses to confound them. Zombies need to git gud.

    Originally posted by theFlu View Post
    for recon, I can only imagine using x-ray exploits as cheese
    I was thinking of this specifically as I tried to come up with my definition. The survivor obviously would not actually be able to see through walls, so using x-ray exploits is cheese.

    Originally posted by pApA^LeGBa View Post
    If something is cheese or not also depends on how long you already play.
    And this is the one situation where my definition would call "busting directly into the loot room" cheesy. If the survivor has never been to that POI before (in that game), then the POI must be explored using one of the other options first. Randomizing the loot rooms and sleepers would make this much more interesting. Once you've been through the POI, going right to the loot is not cheesy. Neither is it cheesy if the loot is obviously visible e.g. the gyrocopter/roof scenario above.

    Originally posted by A Nice Cup of Tea View Post
    You forgot the "none of the above" option, which is the one I would vote for if it were there.
    Yeah, sorry, only 10 options allowed in polls and I had 15 or more in my original draft. I couldn't vote either!

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      #17
      The game is way more fun, following the proper path. I only use brawler weapons, and its nice not having to build or break things, especially with t1 tools :P

      A steel sledge is nice for breaking open the boxes, but apart from that I like to travel light weight and work my way to the Jack Pot.

      If Im low level, then at night I like to bang the front door and fight them on the road. But when Im high enough and have decent gear/consumables, ill just quest at night, as usual. Its quicker and a lot more fun.

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        #18
        I have no clue what the term cheese means in this context. so I have yet to cast my vote. This is a dumb question I know but, what does the slang cheese mean? I've heard of chedder, or make that cheese as in money.
        Last edited by Crater Creator; 02-03-2020, 10:12 PM. Reason: no good will come of bringing race into this

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          #19
          Originally posted by Boidster View Post
          Yeah, sorry, only 10 options allowed in polls and I had 15 or more in my original draft. I couldn't vote either!
          You could just list the possible cheese methods (passive recon, active recon, use different entrance, funnel sleepers outside, break directly into loot room) plus "none of above" and allow multiple selections.

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            #20
            Ok I think I figured out what this term of cheesing means. I vote "none of the above" if I could.
            I think everyone has there own way of clearing a POI and since TFP has given us multiple ways of doing so none are cheesing imo. There are some POIs I find boring so i'll skip the whole poi and go straight for the loot room. *cough water works cough*
            Last edited by ZombieSurvivor; 02-01-2020, 03:20 PM.

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              #21
              Originally posted by meganoth View Post
              You could just list the possible cheese methods (passive recon, active recon, use different entrance, funnel sleepers outside, break directly into loot room) plus "none of above" and allow multiple selections.
              Yes, but I did want to have the different parts in combination. Maybe you think "active recon" is fine, but not when used in combination with breaking open your own entrances. Or vice versa - you think breaking a hole in the wall or using the (barricaded) back door is fine, but not if you've already shot all the sleepers through the windows.

              - - - Updated - - -

              Originally posted by ZombieSurvivor View Post
              I have no clue what the term cheese means in this context.
              Well, as I understand it, "cheese" in the context of gaming (any game) is roughly, "using strategies and tactics that I think avoid parts of the game that I think are fun or which are required for a good experience".

              I use "I" in that sentence because the definition of cheese is very subjective and personal. Hence the poll.

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                #22
                Opinions of what cheating are, are still opinions.
                Not everyone plays for the same reasons, and not everyone plays by the same rules.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Boidster View Post
                  Well, as I understand it, "cheese" in the context of gaming (any game) is roughly, "using strategies and tactics that I think avoid parts of the game that I think are fun or which are required for a good experience".

                  I use "I" in that sentence because the definition of cheese is very subjective and personal. Hence the poll.
                  Thanks, I was some what close to the definition. I was having a hard time defining the meaning because I've never really heard the term before. By the way, cool poll! I love these things

                  I decided to cast a vote since I understand now. I voted "Break directly into loot room, attemt to pilfer loot without conflict". I feel like im cheating on the rare occasions I do this but some POI's just get boring after you've done looted um like 100 times lol. I believe TFP are working on a solution for this. I remember a convo taking place in A18 dev diary about this very issue.
                  Last edited by ZombieSurvivor; 02-01-2020, 06:58 PM. Reason: Incorrect word usage

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                    #24
                    Originally posted by Ramethzer0 View Post
                    Opinions of what cheating are, are still opinions.
                    Not everyone plays for the same reasons, and not everyone plays by the same rules.
                    Yeah I think everyone knows this. Doubt you will have any counter arguments about that.
                    Last edited by ZombieSurvivor; 02-01-2020, 06:31 PM. Reason: spelling errors

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                      #25
                      Here’s how I look at it...

                      Cheesing is playing within the bounds of the game, but exploiting the outer edges in ways the developers didn’t intend.

                      Cheating is playing outside the bounds by exploiting an unintended glitch/feature

                      There is a fine line between them but I see them as separate.

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                        #26
                        I bust up in that bitch like the Kool-Aid man and loot everything, take whatever I see. I might bail into the street or fall back to a larger interior area if things get really hairy. I know a lot of people stealth, I don't like to put points into it myself. I will make noise and club to death all the zeds.

                        Also if it's obvious that behind this wall or that door there is more stuff, I will take the path of least resistance. If it's a huge building I might infiltrate somewhere further up via nerdpole, simply to avoid a lot of combat working my way up.

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                          #27
                          The one thing that seems to break the 'one true path' is the perk that lets you recover brass doorknobs from doors. Once you get that, and you have a decent axe, obviously you have a strong incentive to break every door you see. That in turn means opening up alternative paths, at least in the majority of POIs. You'd be foolish to break down a door, only to then ignore it as a potential path. So player behavior aside, this is one way the game's mechanics kind of trip over themselves.

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                            #28
                            I'll be honest, I'm one of those players who goes straight for the best loot and moves on. Most of the time it's laddering up the easiest side, breaking a few blocks, grabbing the prize then going to the next building. There are however disadvantages, usually the loot caches contains weapons and armour but clearing the POI itself will gather a range of loot like books, food, seeds, ammo, mechanical parts and experience from killing zombies.

                            It's a trade off, we have X amount of time before nightfall and Y time before horde night. We all have a limited amount of time to be productive in preparation, so I would argue that spending time clearing every location as intended is not only wasteful but actually kind of stupid in the larger scale of things. Those empty jars, paper and leather fragments are really going to help when the horde is breaking down the walls. In multiplayer it probably matters even more to be optimimum with time, as it's a race to loot the best POIs first.

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                              #29
                              Originally posted by Boidster View Post
                              I am fascinated with how different players evaluate what is or is not "cheese" in this game. This poll considers different ways to clear a POI.

                              Choose all options which, in your opinion, count as "cheese".

                              The poll choices (mostly) consider three aspects of POI clearing:
                              • What type of reconnaissance do you do? None=no recon of what's inside the POI. Passive=poke holes, look around, no attacking sleepers. Active=poke holes, kill sleepers if possible before entering.
                              • Where do you enter the POI? At the One True Path (OTP) entrance given to you by the developers? Or at some other entrance that you prefer?
                              • How do you handle interior obstructions? Do you follow the OTP and avoid all the locked doors, barbed wire, etc.? Or do you modify the OTP once inside (breaking doors, clearing spikes/mines, etc.) to make progress or retreat easier?


                              Again, choose the "cheesy" options, not the method you use!
                              You forgot to mention: Using junk turrets for perma flinch/stun when not speced into them.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Originally posted by Scyris View Post
                                You forgot to mention: Using junk turrets for perma flinch/stun when not speced into them.
                                Heh, I left out a lot of stuff! I only get 10 options so I had to boil it down to 3 aspects of POI clearing: Recon, entrance, interior path. Getting into which weapons are used would blow the poll up.

                                I'm working on Cheese Quizzes for Horde Night as well. Looking like it's going to have to be 3 polls in order to avoid cherry-picking just a few play styles.

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