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    Originally posted by meganoth View Post
    There is also a major difference between the weapon progression in <=A16 and now: In A16 you progressed from bow to pistol to shotgun to AK to (optionally) sniper. That is why a pistol was usually found much earlier than an AK.
    Actually I stopped at the bow and added a sledgehammer/club, since those weapons were already op af.

    Originally posted by meganoth View Post
    Now the progression is in parallel tiers.
    Which I think is a good thing.
    Of course it has the downside that you will find those t1 weapons earlier in the game, but as long as they aren't per se better than the t1 bow, I don't see it as gamebreaking. Still, I'd prefer to see those weapons later, but I won't complain.

    Originally posted by meganoth View Post
    If you know how to get more ammunition than the average player (for example if you go straight to the loot room in POIs or know how to get a lot of easy money), you are effectively circumventing that balancing limit.
    I usually play without loot respawn and prefer clear quests, because once I enter a house, I usually want to clear it (zed and loot wise), so I don't need to enter it again, as long as I don't go on a wrenching tour.
    I get that people have different playstyles, but if someone takes away his fun on purpose, by nerdpoling all the loot rooms, it's his own fault that there is no replayability. I don't think that will ever be balanceable. But why do they even need the ammo, if they are skipping all the zeds anyway and set up a bloodmoon base where zeds just loop mindlessly?

    Comment


      Originally posted by Jihh View Post
      Yes I could. Bows were quite strong in previous alphas. That's basically the reason why primitive bows found its way into the game, so they don't have to nerf the normal bow. (at least that's what I understood)

      I can't remember ever having difficulties with it.

      Just like it was in A15/16 with a bow and a club. Two items you could craft in the first five minutes of the game without any rng involved. So if we'd apply your definition of endgame and your hint at different playstiles, then many players reached endgame in A15/16 way faster than you do now. Therefor A18 isn't faster than A15/16 per se, it's just faster for you, due to your definition of endgame.
      If that's the case (which I highly doubt, but let's assume), then you are never in any danger. I enjoy being in danger, the adrenalin rush and so on. And since for me, danger ends with a gun and ammo, that's where my endgame begins.

      I do enjoy the endgame, though, so it's not like there is nothing else to do anymore, but that early game of being in danger and having to fear places and situations, that's just gone.

      Originally posted by Jihh View Post
      If having your favorite weapon is your definition of endgame, there won't be much the developers will be able to do for you. It's not the game that's taking away your replayability, but your goals.
      It was perfectly fine before the introduction of the loot rooms and I hear they are already aware of exactly my problem, recognize it as one and will be tweaking it. So regarding this issue of mine, the odds are well in my favor.

      Would you mind if the A17 changes would be reverted, and if so, why? Apparently, you don't even need guns.

      Originally posted by Jihh View Post
      It's not like I started the sentence with "imho" (in MY humble opinion).
      If you meant that it's really just your personal endgame, that's fine. It sounds like in your humble opinion the endgame of 7DTD is what you describe.

      Originally posted by Jihh View Post
      Don't get me wrong, I don't want to call anyone a cheater or similar. Everyone can play the way he/she wants to, I couldn't care less, so please excuse me using the word "cheating", due me not being a native english speaker and therefor not knowing a better word for it:
      Cheating the ai to a degree that you could deactive zeds as well and then stating that the game has nothing to offer to you, seems a bit off to me. As I said before, from my point of view it looks like you are the one who is taking away your replayability, not the game.
      +

      Originally posted by Jihh View Post
      I get that people have different playstyles, but if someone takes away his fun on purpose, by nerdpoling all the loot rooms, it's his own fault that there is no replayability. I don't think that will ever be balanceable. But why do they even need the ammo, if they are skipping all the zeds anyway and set up a bloodmoon base where zeds just loop mindlessly?
      Just like my early game was fine before, horde night was fine before. They changed it, so they took the replay-value down. Of course you can always roleplay all kinds of things, but why the obligation? Just like my playthrough without spending skill points, I consider it a design failure that I had to do that to have fun. If it's not intended that I have guns and ammo on day 1 and horde night is ez, then the game's design is flawed. And btw would I have guns with all the ammo I need on day two if I would go through the buildings, it's no substantial difference.

      Would be much better, if the game was, you know, just good without me (actually) cheating common sense and logic. Cuz if this was real life, of course you would bee line to the next weapon cache and "cheat" the intelligence of the enemy instead of making things artificially hard. Would you not.

      Originally posted by Jihh View Post
      At that point I'm kinda astonished why it even makes a difference what weapon you are using with that strategy. If you like guns that much, isn't it a good thing to have a gun with a strategy that makes the weapon type irrelevant?
      I simply like the pistol most. The handling, the gameplay. It pleasures me to land many headshots in a short time.

      Last not least. There are at LEAST four more major reasons why the replay value has vanished for me. These two (early gun and bad AI) on their own might not be the deciding factor. But the combination of at least six major issues leave me with no reason to start a new game after I played through the latest release once.
      Last edited by Kubikus; 02-10-2020, 08:43 PM.

      Comment


        Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
        I do enjoy the endgame, though, so it's not like there is nothing else to do anymore, but that early game of being in danger and having to fear places and situations, that's just gone.
        That was gone after I knew the mechanics of the game, so after like 50 hours of playing the game. The only times I feel in danger are my first ~three days in a new alpha, since I don't know if the game got harder or not. There is also some thrill right before and at the start of the first bloodmoon night in a new alpha, because I don't know if my base will hold, but that's gone during the bloodmoon night. It's not the gear that makes the game easy, but my experience with the game.
        I doubt that vanilla game with default setting will ever be a challenge again, I'm just too experienced. Balancing it to my experience level would make the game unplayable for new players.

        Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
        It was perfectly fine before the introduction of the loot rooms
        But if a single gun and a handfull of ammo sends you into endgame, how are those pinatas a problem? You would get a gun in the first two days even if you would ignore those pinatas entirely. Don't get me wrong, I don't like them either. At least not with the amount of loot they are providing us. But with the low bar you set for reaching the endgame, they don't even matter.

        Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
        Would you mind if the A17 changes would be reverted, and if so, why? Apparently, you don't even need guns.
        What exact changes are you speaking of?
        While I don't like everything A17 did and I don't like everything A18 did and I'm even convinced that some changes are bad for the game, not just my preferences, I do think that both alphas had more positive changes than negative ones and made the game overall a better one. At least if we ignore the lack of outside zeds, but as we know that's work in progress.

        Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
        If you meant that it's really just your personal endgame, that's fine.
        That's what I'd call endgame. I also think that it makes sense to define early, mid and end game in a way that all three exist and differentiate them by milestones that change the way you play the game, but at what point that happens, is up to everyone themselves.
        So while in the past a bow and club were all I needed to not be challenged by zeds anymore, my gameplay and goals didn't change the moment I had them. It was still about getting started, finding a place to settle down, not starving and getting geared up.

        Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
        Cuz if this was real life, of course you would bee line to the next weapon cache and "cheat" the intelligence of the enemy instead of making things artificially hard. Would you not.
        I don't think a real life comparison works here. In real life I wouldn't start multiple runs, so I wouldn't know where the loot is. I also wouldn't know the pathing of zeds from previous runs. I wouldn't have a creative mode to test setups.
        At best I could capture a handful of zeds and run some tests, but there is a lot of risk involved and there wouldn't be certainty that other zeds have the same pathing. So in real life I would never build a base that fails instantly as soon as a single zed behaves differently. That's how you end up a zombie yourself. It only works in the game due to patchnotes. Just imagine TFP could change the ai midgame, even mid bloodmoon night without any notice and every game were dead is dead. Would you still go for cheating ai pathing?
        The game is still in alpha, so even if it would be possible to make the perfect game, we couldn't expect to already be perfect, so some "roleplaying" in doing POI the intented way instead of nerdpoling to the loot room, isn't that bad, if it makes the game more fun.

        Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
        Last not least. There are at LEAST four more major reasons why the replay value has vanished for me. These two (early gun and bad AI) on their own might not be the deciding factor. But the combination of at least six major issues leave me with no reason to start a new game after I played through the latest release once.
        Why don't you play a previous alpha then until they fixed some of your problems? If they had replay value nothing should stop you.

        Comment


          Originally posted by Ghostlight View Post
          We also tended to use base designs that kept vultures out and flying harmlessly overhead. This makes the horde thin as the night passes out as your 16 zombie limit ends up being all vultures that are not engaging, and no ground zombies can spawn then. It's a serious problem when you set it 8.
          This is a good point and a serious problem that needs to be fixed. Vultures are just completely useless on horde nights. They created them and teh players 'created' roofs. You could make them see you through walls and puke at your head but all that do will make players have roofs that are multiple blocks thick. Vultures should be removed completely during horde night or not counted in the zombie limits.

          Comment


            Originally posted by stallionsden View Post
            Ofc the kids of this generation will buy the game cause they dont need to near on do anything to win.
            One of the worst arguments you will ever see time and time again across a variety of topics. 'Things were harder in the past and thus better.' You wont to make this argument? At least make it against games that deserve it, not this one. How old are you? Unless you're immortal I can find older people who would make the same argument about things you enjoy, it doesn't mean it's true. You would argue against why the things older people than you consider to be 'harder' are actually 'worse' but the things you consider to be 'harder' are actually better than what those younger than you experience. What other games do you play? I doubt you're even experiencing the hardest challenges that video games have to offer.
            Last edited by uselessjunkaccount; 02-11-2020, 06:50 AM.

            Comment


              Originally posted by uselessjunkaccount View Post
              One of the worst arguments you will ever see time and time again across a variety of topics. 'Things were harder in the past and thus better.' You wont to make this argument? At least make it against games that deserve it, not this one. How old are you? Unless you're immortal I can find older people who would make the same argument about things you enjoy, it doesn't mean it's true. You would argue against why the things older people than you consider to be 'harder' are actually 'worse' but the things you consider to be 'harder' are actually better than what those younger than you experience. What other games do you play? I doubt you're even experiencing the hardest challenges that video games have to offer.
              Yes lol

              dungeon pois tell you where to go, find guns near on instantly on day 1.biomes empty with only a trickle of zs. Cities near none at all. crafting items the ui tells you what you need and how to make it etc etc etc..

              My age is of no value to this thread at all.

              I have been a huge fan of this game since a5.. (when did you join. .. wait let me see your profile...) oh a whole 3 months... nice enjoying a18 as you know it cool you like easy games that give you the answers to .But you probably find it exciting and captivating and thats ok cauae this version is all you know. But in the words of morpheus what if i told you 7dtd use to be unique in the sense of the game play was in a world of its own at a large portion of its life (a1 thru a16) . You prolly wouldnt be able to survive in any of the alphas prior to a16/a17 and probably rage quit.

              Your response actually supports that snippet of mine you tried to respond to. By no way is what I have stated wrong or worst arguments ever and I most definately can state it on this game and i did... again as you probably missed by not reading the whole thread I not the only one whom thinks this and more that the game is by far to eaay and cateted for new players.

              and another little hint i didnt just make this stuff up like i said in the comments i made that you didnt read i do talk to alot of ex veterans of the game who share the exact same thoughts as well as those who still do that also share it as well as their own extra thoughts as well. You would a noticed that as well

              I have love hard games. Games that make you think and strategise and where the answers arent there given to you.

              The games i have and i have alot of hard games, ones that dont give me the answer or are easy either.
              - Dying light
              - The forrest
              are but a few of the hundreds of games i play and they are def requiring actual challenge and thought.

              then i have ps3 and ps4 with hundreds of games on both those as well.
              - leisure suit larry.. (You know how dang hard that is to get laid.. bloody terribly hard, i actually have better chance in real life lol)
              - resident evil
              etc etc to many to name here that you prolly wouldnt like cause they were terribly difficult.

              But that is all I am gonna respond i suggest you read the whole thread and every post first...
              Last edited by stallionsden; 02-11-2020, 10:08 AM.

              Comment


                Originally posted by stallionsden View Post
                My age is of no value to this thread at all..
                I was not seriously inquiring about your age and am in no way trying to be an ageist. I was merely making the point that the argument of 'things were harder in the past and thus better' has been made since time immemorial and is always proven to be wrong over the long run. Seriously, you will find even examples of this argument in ancient literature.

                It's all about what you experienced in your heyday, which most people think is the 'best' version of everything. I actually have read this thread and have replied multiple times to it before today. As I stated earlier in this thread, A17 was my first alpha I played and that it was plenty convoluted enough for a player back then. I started at the very beginning of A17 and watched Youtuber since A15/16 off and on. But A17 was my first experience. To mirror your own comment back to you, if you'd read this thread you'd have seen this. But neither you or I are the Rainman so neither of us should be blamed for not remembering everything in a fifteen page thread that's over a week old and I certainly do not think that you or I should have to go back and re-read a 15 page thread to find previous replies from one another.

                But that whole argument in itself just proves my point and you make it time and time again in your latest post. By pointing out my forum time you're still making the argument that I'm too new to understand the 'best version' of the game and thus have a less valid opinion. I play the game now on the hardest possible settings, as I've already stated once in this thread, and make rules within the game to make it even harder. I doubt 99% of people playing are playing it in a harder fashion. Why? Because I got bored. It got too easy. Not because the game itself is too easy but because I've mastered it. It was hard for me in A17. There were plenty of systems to learn and plenty of mysteries in A17, many systems that did not even exist in previous alphas as I've now learned. Personally I don't feel that Minecraft-style grid crafting made things better or 'sharp rock' style prerequisites actually added difficulty.

                Those things may have added hours to the completion of my mastery of the game but I don't think it would make the game a better experience, or actually harder, than it currently is. In my opinion such things are not worthwhile time sinks in a game that already includes so many. Then there's the reality that they are not updating this game to please us but to make the best experience for new players and reverting to previous alphas is not going to win them awards.

                You listed some good games there, but how many of those do you still play to this day? And how much time have you sunk into this game relative to those? I think most people who fall in love with anything like the earliest version of it. I'm 34 and have been playing since the days of the original Nintendo. I played the original Mist and loved it despite never even finishing it. The game I've sunk the most time into in my life is the original Everquest MMORPG which was convoluted to the extreme.

                I've come to learn that original veterans of a game are not always the best source of information when moving forward. And that includes my own experience of games over the years. From what I've seen it's not even as if the original version of this game was actually more complicated but that trivial recipe ingredients phases were taken out, that crafting inflicts less repetitive-stress injuries on your hands/wrists and that zombie AI has been become more complicated. I've learned a lot about previous alphas despite never playing them. There were so many easy, cheesey bases you could make back in the day. You could make a base one block below ground and no zombies would get to you because they couldn't dig down. You could make a base in a tree and zombies couldn't hit trees so it was invulnerable. You could make a base by placing minibike frames on the ground and zombies could only pass through 1 in 100 times by sheer luck. You could dig a trench around a base and zombies wouldn't tunnel so it was invulnerable. Things that I have never played through myself but do for a fact know that they existed in the previous alphas because I have seen the videos. None of that equates to harder horde nights despite all the cheesey bases that currently exploit zombie AI. It was merely easier to cheese the AI back then.

                'Sharp rocks' and crafting grids are only time sinks that veterans like you and I will not find to be a hindrance in the slightest and that will not actually add difficulty to the game for us. They're just time sinks. Zombie AI was dumber in the past despite still being dumb in many ways now. It's not prefect but I personally see it as progress and I surely do not see going back to previous alphas as being something most current or future players will enjoy the most. People point to things like zombie-loop horde bases as if zombie AI has regressed but it was even dumber in the past and required less effort to invalidate the zombies.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by uselessjunkaccount View Post
                  I was not seriously inquiring about your age and am in no way trying to be an ageist. I was merely making the point that the argument of 'things were harder in the past and thus better' has been made since time immemorial and is always proven to be wrong over the long run. Seriously, you will find even examples of this argument in ancient literature.

                  It's all about what you experienced in your heyday, which most people think is the 'best' version of everything. I actually have read this thread and have replied multiple times to it before today. As I stated earlier in this thread, A17 was my first alpha I played and that it was plenty convoluted enough for a player back then. I started at the very beginning of A17 and watched Youtuber since A15/16 off and on. But A17 was my first experience. To mirror your own comment back to you, if you'd read this thread you'd have seen this. But neither you or I are the Rainman so neither of us should be blamed for not remembering everything in a fifteen page thread that's over a week old and I certainly do not think that you or I should have to go back and re-read a 15 page thread to find previous replies from one another.

                  But that whole argument in itself just proves my point and you make it time and time again in your latest post. By pointing out my forum time you're still making the argument that I'm too new to understand the 'best version' of the game and thus have a less valid opinion. I play the game now on the hardest possible settings, as I've already stated once in this thread, and make rules within the game to make it even harder. I doubt 99% of people playing are playing it in a harder fashion. Why? Because I got bored. It got too easy. Not because the game itself is too easy but because I've mastered it. It was hard for me in A17. There were plenty of systems to learn and plenty of mysteries in A17, many systems that did not even exist in previous alphas as I've now learned. Personally I don't feel that Minecraft-style grid crafting made things better or 'sharp rock' style prerequisites actually added difficulty.

                  Those things may have added hours to the completion of my mastery of the game but I don't think it would make the game a better experience, or actually harder, than it currently is. In my opinion such things are not worthwhile time sinks in a game that already includes so many. Then there's the reality that they are not updating this game to please us but to make the best experience for new players and reverting to previous alphas is not going to win them awards.

                  You listed some good games there, but how many of those do you still play to this day? And how much time have you sunk into this game relative to those? I think most people who fall in love with anything like the earliest version of it. I'm 34 and have been playing since the days of the original Nintendo. I played the original Mist and loved it despite never even finishing it. The game I've sunk the most time into in my life is the original Everquest MMORPG which was convoluted to the extreme.

                  I've come to learn that original veterans of a game are not always the best source of information when moving forward. And that includes my own experience of games over the years. From what I've seen it's not even as if the original version of this game was actually more complicated but that trivial recipe ingredients phases were taken out, that crafting inflicts less repetitive-stress injuries on your hands/wrists and that zombie AI has been become more complicated. I've learned a lot about previous alphas despite never playing them. There were so many easy, cheesey bases you could make back in the day. You could make a base one block below ground and no zombies would get to you because they couldn't dig down. You could make a base in a tree and zombies couldn't hit trees so it was invulnerable. You could make a base by placing minibike frames on the ground and zombies could only pass through 1 in 100 times by sheer luck. You could dig a trench around a base and zombies wouldn't tunnel so it was invulnerable. Things that I have never played through myself but do for a fact know that they existed in the previous alphas because I have seen the videos. None of that equates to harder horde nights despite all the cheesey bases that currently exploit zombie AI. It was merely easier to cheese the AI back then.

                  'Sharp rocks' and crafting grids are only time sinks that veterans like you and I will not find to be a hindrance in the slightest and that will not actually add difficulty to the game for us. They're just time sinks. Zombie AI was dumber in the past despite still being dumb in many ways now. It's not prefect but I personally see it as progress and I surely do not see going back to previous alphas as being something most current or future players will enjoy the most. People point to things like zombie-loop horde bases as if zombie AI has regressed but it was even dumber in the past and required less effort to invalidate the zombies.
                  I will re reply to this tomorrow as I am way to tired and my words may not come out right lol. I have played since the old crappy atari/commodore 64 lol thank god for todays tech lol.

                  In regards to the games i listed I havent played ps3 or 04 for a while pc, dying light I have played a few times. still learning after owning it this long without mods I find it not needing any mods anyway. the difficulty is there. strategy brain thought.

                  the crafting grid (aka as you call it minecraft grid) is def scarier because you had to craft and place the ingredients on the exact spot to create what you wanted. on top of that you had zs bearing down on you and you were under the thumb, altho that is gone I do miss that it wont be back unless some one mods it in i guess if it is possible. all the crafting grid now is click and it is crafting and you can carry on no threat of zs at all.

                  I have read this thread and yeh never recalled your username in it prior but i missed a post here and there my apologies. your opinion is valid for a17 onwards cause thats when you started you cant comment on prior cause you never actually played it, The difference is huge.watching it on you tube still didnt give you the exact feeling of in game altho it did give you an insight but still not the same as playing it. It is like a new movie coming out and its a comedy but they show you all the funny bits but when you go to see it it is not funny at all lol.

                  I mean you really like and enjoy empty towns no to few zs.... its spose to be a zombie game but where are the dang zombies in the cities. Yes pois have sleepers including zs that spawn in a spot you just walked over lol but the city streets use to actually feel like doom if you entered. Now you can bring a pic-a-nic a-bas-ket (say it in a yogi voice.. I bet you just did) sit eat and sleep and may have 1 or 3 z wander. maybe you should try playing a previous alpha.. hmmm alpha 12. lets say.

                  There is alot of things in a18 i do enjoy the new blocks and items, i do enjoy (well did enjoy the dungeon pois (the first time i went thru them) lost their appeal after a bit . But all that is needed is lights removed from them and the rooms randomised and maybe multi paths to try to confuse the player into actually looking for the correct path or face possible death if wrong path etc. to make those dugeon pois great again.

                  but it needs what made the game get to a17 and a18 as well the cities that were full of zs and were feared to go near. the challenges of biomes life. I am repeating myself and all but if you only read the stupid heading you are gonna think the wrong thoughts on what the real issues are and come here and disagree just by that heading but the heading def gives those whom actually dont read and actually understand what we are saying a go at being provocotive etc towards us.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                    That was gone after I knew the mechanics of the game, so after like 50 hours of playing the game. The only times I feel in danger are my first ~three days in a new alpha, since I don't know if the game got harder or not. There is also some thrill right before and at the start of the first bloodmoon night in a new alpha, because I don't know if my base will hold, but that's gone during the bloodmoon night. It's not the gear that makes the game easy, but my experience with the game.

                    I doubt that vanilla game with default setting will ever be a challenge again, I'm just too experienced. Balancing it to my experience level would make the game unplayable for new players.
                    With my own experience, I too can certainly survive and avoid danger until I'm strong enough, but still I can't go anywhere. For example can I not go into a room full of running zombies with only a bow and a club, particularly because the attack speed of the attackers will have them kill me before I can even use the slow bow and slow club enough to kill them. No problem with a pistol though.

                    So unless you have godlike skills of a degree that I have never seen and never even heard of before, you might be talking about knowing how to avoid danger. For example is there a POI that has a zombie bear. I would not go there with only a bow and a club. With a pistol I can.

                    Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                    But if a single gun and a handfull of ammo sends you into endgame, how are those pinatas a problem? You would get a gun in the first two days even if you would ignore those pinatas entirely.
                    It's not a handful, it's defined as "all the ammo I need". I have 100 rounds on day 1, so I can just rush through the next POI, kill all the zombies, plunder the next treasure room, either find ammo there or stuff to sell to the trader to buy more. Rinse repeat. Even - unless I roleplay not spending skillpoints - grabbing tons of XP on the way, leveling my character up.

                    I played the game since A9 and the problem of having a gun with enough ammo on the first day exactly arrived with the release of A17. It was no problem before. Before, you might be lucky and find a pistol - I think the only option for that was the toilet pistol - but then you had no steady flow of ammo. Also, the weapons still had proper levels, meaning that a low level pistol was practically useless and you had to pump.. something like 5 bullets into a zombie head to take it down. 'Twas the time when weapons had four parts, so when you broke into a safe or a messiah crate (and these crates were mostly restricted to the messiah shop, which again was one of the rarest POIs, thus giving the player a lot of pleasure when they found one), you could just find a part, and in the early game one of low quality, that I would simply scrap over it's uselessness.

                    Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                    Don't get me wrong, I don't like them either. At least not with the amount of loot they are providing us. But with the low bar you set for reaching the endgame, they don't even matter.
                    So you agree that there is way too much good loot in the early game. Where else would I get the gun then?

                    And the bar I set never seemed low before. Before, it would take roughly two ingame weeks to get a proper gun and a steady flow of ammo going, with 1 hour days that's 14 hours. A pretty good early game. It was necessary to craft the ammo, that's a major reason, plus you had to find certain recipes.

                    I was always missing a somewhat clearly defined mid game, maybe I could define that as the phase where I still do not have stuff that I would like to have. These days, that would mostly be the motorcycle. But then again, it's just a convenience piece of no essential relevance.

                    Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                    What exact changes are you speaking of?
                    In this case, the treasure rooms that enable the player to find great gear very early on. I layed out the six pillars of my criticism in the post you initially replied to.

                    Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                    While I don't like everything A17 did and I don't like everything A18 did and I'm even convinced that some changes are bad for the game, not just my preferences, I do think that both alphas had more positive changes than negative ones and made the game overall a better one. At least if we ignore the lack of outside zeds, but as we know that's work in progress.
                    I obviously disagree, but I guess you've already agreed that the treasure rooms are a negative change. As do the devs. If you have never played an alpha that has these different cell-hub-types - I'm not sure when these were removed, before the introduction of sleeper I believe - I recommend going back to such an alpha and try that out, you don't know what you're missing (though that might even be a case of "ignorance is bliss", eh). It's certainly in A14 and earlier.

                    Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                    That's what I'd call endgame. I also think that it makes sense to define early, mid and end game in a way that all three exist and differentiate them by milestones that change the way you play the game, but at what point that happens, is up to everyone themselves.

                    So while in the past a bow and club were all I needed to not be challenged by zeds anymore, my gameplay and goals didn't change the moment I had them. It was still about getting started, finding a place to settle down, not starving and getting geared up.
                    I look at it from the survivalist perspective: I reach endgame when I'm certain I will survive any situation. And once I have that pistol with enough ammo, I'm certain I will survive any situation. Food is no problem anyway, and with a gun, no enemy is either. Ergo: Endgame.

                    Do not, however, get cought up in the word. It's probably some sort of hyperbole too. Though.. Well. I do mean it. But I layed out how and why, and it's obviously fine if you do not accept that as the definition of end game.

                    Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                    I don't think a real life comparison works here. In real life I wouldn't start multiple runs, so I wouldn't know where the loot is. I also wouldn't know the pathing of zeds from previous runs. I wouldn't have a creative mode to test setups.

                    At best I could capture a handful of zeds and run some tests, but there is a lot of risk involved and there wouldn't be certainty that other zeds have the same pathing. So in real life I would never build a base that fails instantly as soon as a single zed behaves differently. That's how you end up a zombie yourself. It only works in the game due to patchnotes.
                    I'm comparing how you approach and deal with problems. If you knew where the next weapon cache is and could be certain how zombies behave (and it would be easy to construct IRL reasons why you would know that), you would use that information and not roleplay over it. And therefor, a design that makes these things as forseeable as they are now, is inferior to one that makes these things not as forseeable. Aka if you know a solution to a problem, it is against your nature to pretend not to know the solution.

                    Which means that if you do not like things to be forseeable - and I like things not to be forseeable - you dislike the current design.

                    My base "design" does fail frequently. Zombies frequently do not exactly follow the path. But they still can't get to me, because the staircase leads up to a structure that they can't climb, usually an unmodified poi that I'm sitting on. Sooner or later they will go back on the staircase though.

                    Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                    Just imagine TFP could change the ai midgame, even mid bloodmoon night without any notice and every game were dead is dead. Would you still go for cheating ai pathing?
                    I don't cheat, so let's not normalize that word. I don't even abuse any mechanics. It's just bad design that the ai is this forseeable and easy to outsmart, it's unjustified to blame the player for not "roleplaying" ignorance of the obvious.

                    And if the ai was unforseeable, I obviously could not outsmart it with a simple single design and I would prefer that very very much over what we have now.

                    Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                    The game is still in alpha, so even if it would be possible to make the perfect game, we couldn't expect to already be perfect, so some "roleplaying" in doing POI the intented way instead of nerdpoling to the loot room, isn't that bad, if it makes the game more fun.
                    I don't expect the game to be perfect and I'm bascially unwilling to roleplay to compensate design flaws. Roleplaying that way also is a reduction of fun for me. It did work with the skillpoints, because spending skillpoints itself is roleplaying too, as that activity has no counterpart in reality, it roleplays learning something in an unrealistic way. Thinking about it, instead of roleplaying, not spending skillpoints is actually a refusal of roleplay.

                    Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                    Why don't you play a previous alpha then until they fixed some of your problems? If they had replay value nothing should stop you.
                    I did - I have several of them actually installed right now. But it has an element of frustration, plus I'm very patient and in a mindset of "waiting for gold". For example, I went back to A12, a great alpha, but it had so many flaws and inconveniences, that I started missing features that came later. Same with A14. There are also a lot of things in A17+ that I like, i.e. the POI-design, the new weapons and the weapon mods, the vehicles, obviously the graphics, the new zombie models, the animals.

                    What I mostly do is not playing at all. But I can still explain why I don't like what I don't like about A17+.

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by stallionsden View Post
                      the crafting grid (aka as you call it minecraft grid) is def scarier because you had to craft and place the ingredients on the exact spot to create what you wanted. on top of that you had zs bearing down on you and you were under the thumb, altho that is gone I do miss that it wont be back unless some one mods it in i guess if it is possible. all the crafting grid now is click and it is crafting and you can carry on no threat of zs at all.
                      I almost never craft while I'm in danger, because that's just stupid. So how does this add any challenge to the game or makes it "scarier"? Therefor crafting grids are just a waste of time, they don't add a challenge or complexity. You could argue that crafting grids make crafting slower and therefor is a form of crafting time balance. But it's even better to balance crafting times by changing the times directly.

                      Originally posted by stallionsden View Post
                      I mean you really like and enjoy empty towns no to few zs.... its spose to be a zombie game but where are the dang zombies in the cities.
                      I'm pretty sure aside from creative mode players nobody enjoys empty towns, but as Madmole explained multiple times and others (including mods and developers) repeated it: It is due to technical limits and it is worked on. So that emptyness isn't supposed to stay in the game, it's just a problem we have to deal with temporary. Since the game still is in alpha that's something that can happen. So either we deal with it, or we play previous alphas in the meantime. It has nothing to do with the game allegedly getting boring.

                      Originally posted by stallionsden View Post
                      i do enjoy (well did enjoy the dungeon pois (the first time i went thru them) lost their appeal after a bit .
                      Yes they aren't as exciting as they were the first time. But it's not like the old POI had a better longevity. On the contrary, they got old even faster, so while there is room for improvement (and since the game isn't done yet improvements aren't out of the picture) they are still better than the old POI. TFP just need to nerf the loot rooms and weapon loot overall.

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                        Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                        I almost never craft while I'm in danger, because that's just stupid. So how does this add any challenge to the game or makes it "scarier"? Therefor crafting grids are just a waste of time, they don't add a challenge or complexity. You could argue that crafting grids make crafting slower and therefor is a form of crafting time balance. But it's even better to balance crafting times by changing the times directly.

                        cause there isnt any danger in a17/a18..... and well thats cause everything is given to you easily... back then you had to actually work for things and run out of things like arrows or what not and you have a actual horde coming at yo. but you needed to actually play those alphas to understand .

                        I'm pretty sure aside from creative mode players nobody enjoys empty towns, but as Madmole explained multiple times and others (including mods and developers) repeated it: It is due to technical limits and it is worked on. So that emptyness isn't supposed to stay in the game, it's just a problem we have to deal with temporary. Since the game still is in alpha that's something that can happen. So either we deal with it, or we play previous alphas in the meantime. It has nothing to do with the game allegedly getting boring.

                        we had a crap tonne of zs previously... no excuses sorry it makes the game boring having no fear threat in game no need to work hard for things or use your head to craft etc.... the lack of zs in a zombie game ..................

                        Yes they aren't as exciting as they were the first time. But it's not like the old POI had a better longevity. On the contrary, they got old even faster, so while there is room for improvement (and since the game isn't done yet improvements aren't out of the picture) they are still better than the old POI. TFP just need to nerf the loot rooms and weapon loot overall.
                        Your very incorrect but it was a suggestion also to make the game better and more replayable and actually fix that issue of the game... having to visit the dungeon poi is repetitive and boring after the first or second visit. repetitive and down right boring part of the game cause you know where things are. If you actually read the lights of the dungeon poi is more so tho what i was talking bout giving the players the answers to which path to go. remove the lights and you have a better outcome in the game. rather then again giving the answers to the players. so you are dead wrong there :-) nothing to do with nerfing that wont fix anything once again wrong. randomising and removing the lights that give the path will how ever improve the excitement as well as adding new game play that is exciting and again replayable.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                          So unless you have godlike skills of a degree that I have never seen and never even heard of before, you might be talking about knowing how to avoid danger.
                          I tend to not pull all zombies at once. But even when I happen to pull more than I want to, I seldom die. Not counting my 50 hours in the game I usually die once (or twice with bad luck) per game and play on average 70-100 days (with 60 minutes each) per game. Even in my A15 game on highest difficulty with zombies running day and night and my base next to the central city I died once (due to an accidently missclick) in somewhat over 80 days with (if I remember correctly) 90 minutes a day (yes I had longer days, because I expected it to be more challenging).
                          Zombies aren't the challenge in the game. Not doing stupid things are the challenge. Almost all of my deaths after I knew all mechanics were due to doing stupid things.

                          Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                          For example is there a POI that has a zombie bear. I would not go there with only a bow and a club.
                          Why though? Clear the zombies from a range where the bears won't trigger and afterwards they are easily manageable. Use obstacles to your advantage like you would do in real life.

                          Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                          the problem of having a gun with enough ammo on the first day exactly arrived with the release of A17. It was no problem before.
                          But before A17 the bow was overpowered af. Clubs and sledgehammers even more. In A18 I'll have to find a gun to be as strong as I were in A15/16 after crafting a bow, a stone axe (to get a handful of iron from a few rocks in order to craft a better club) and a club. So how is an early gun in A17/18 a bigger problem than the overpowered bows and clubs were in A15/16? In the end in both cases you had/have a powerful weapon on day 1. I feel like you aren't looking at the actual power those weapons provide in the game in the respective alphas, but at the power those weapons would provide in real life. But important for the balance and thus challenge of the game is the actual ingame power in relation to the respective alpha.
                          The early A18 gun just takes the spot the early A15 bow had, while the early A18 bow is weaker. So while I agree that there is too much ammo in the game right now (especially since I don't even use it, but friends do and they can't use it as fast as I produce, loot and buy it), it actually makes sense to provide the A18 gun with the same amount of ammo the A15 bow had. But since TFP is looking at the numbers and probably will nerf ammo gains (if I understood it correctly) that's just a temporary problem. That can happen in a game that's still in alpha.

                          Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                          So you agree that there is way too much good loot in the early game. Where else would I get the gun then?
                          I don't understand the question. At the same places you get it now, just later and with a lower chance and a lesser quality.

                          Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                          And the bar I set never seemed low before. Before, it would take roughly two ingame weeks to get a proper gun and a steady flow of ammo going
                          And back then we had a more vertical design, while the game now aims for multiple tiers among several weapon types. The gun is supposed to be a comparatively weak weapon (t1), balance just isn't done yet.


                          , with 1 hour days that's 14 hours. A pretty good early game. It was necessary to craft the ammo, that's a major reason, plus you had to find certain recipes.

                          I was always missing a somewhat clearly defined mid game, maybe I could define that as the phase where I still do not have stuff that I would like to have. These days, that would mostly be the motorcycle. But then again, it's just a convenience piece of no essential relevance.

                          Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                          In this case, the treasure rooms that enable the player to find great gear very early on.
                          But as Roland already said, they are looking into it.

                          Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                          If you have never played an alpha that has these different cell-hub-types - I'm not sure when these were removed, before the introduction of sleeper I believe - I recommend going back to such an alpha and try that out, you don't know what you're missing (though that might even be a case of "ignorance is bliss", eh). It's certainly in A14 and earlier.
                          I'm not sure, if I understood that correctly, but if you are talking about outside zombies:
                          Sleeper zombies were introduced in A16 along with fewer outside zombies. I had more outside zombies in A15 and yes I actually miss them a lot. But I already adressed that in the part you quoted:"At least if we ignore the lack of outside zeds, but as we know that's work in progress."
                          So I agree that this is a problem the game has right now, but since it's subject to change, we just have to wait. It's not like they aren't coming back ever. Does it hurt A18? Definitely! But judging the overall direction of a game on things that are temporary gone in an alpha, doesn't really make sense.

                          Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                          I look at it from the survivalist perspective: I reach endgame when I'm certain I will survive any situation. And once I have that pistol with enough ammo, I'm certain I will survive any situation. Food is no problem anyway, and with a gun, no enemy is either. Ergo: Endgame.
                          So a bow and a club were endgame in A15.

                          Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                          If you knew where the next weapon cache is
                          How would you know that in an unknown house? The only reason you know it in the game is because you were in the house before in another game.

                          Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                          could be certain how zombies behave (and it would be easy to construct IRL reasons why you would know that)
                          You could never be certain. It's like those people who keep dangerous pets. On some cases never something happens on other cases it does, no matter how certain they were about how their pets behave. In a life or death situation like we have in the game I would never count on all zombies behaving the same way.

                          Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                          And therefor, a design that makes these things as forseeable as they are now, is inferior to one that makes these things not as forseeable.
                          Then let's hope they will spread the loot all over the POI and get rid of loot rooms.

                          Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                          Which means that if you do not like things to be forseeable - and I like things not to be forseeable - you dislike the current design.
                          Yes, I don't like loot rooms. I mean I usually clear houses completely, but of course I know where the loot is and thus there is some incentive to just go there. But it's not the loot rooms that take away the challenge, but my knowledge where those loot rooms are and how to get to them without encountering zombies. Even if they would get rid of those loot rooms and distribute the loot over the whole houses there still would be some rooms more interesting than others. In a game where we can destroy everything with ease and nerdpole to any height we want to, they can never keep us from using knowledge we wouldn't have in real life. That's the price we pay for the freedom we have. And that problem already existed in previous alphas.

                          Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                          It's just bad design that the ai is this forseeable and easy to outsmart, it's unjustified to blame the player for not "roleplaying" ignorance of the obvious.
                          Aside from how difficult (if even possible with the power average computer provide) it is to make an ai outsmart players, it would be bad lore design if zombies would outsmart players. So of course we are supposed to outsmart zombies. But there is a difference between playing the game and playing the system. I mean you do you, I don't care how you play your game. But complaining about a lack of challenge when you are playing the (not even done) system, is something I don't understand.

                          Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                          roleplay
                          I don't even get why you are calling it roleplaying to play the game instead of the system. I guess we have a completely different take on what games are and I don't think that any alpha will ever meet your expectations, since alphas usually are in a state where playing the system is at easy as it gets, since preventing it isn't the highest priority.

                          Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                          But I can still explain why I don't like what I don't like about A17+.
                          Of course you can. I did it too. I was discussing the crafting situation (no Q6 crafting) and how overpowered Lucky Looter is. Roland was stating that loot numbers are being looked at, but that it will take some time. I'm still not convinced that tweaking some numbers will actually solve the problems I have, but there is no point to further discuss it until those tweaks are in and tested.
                          That said, many of the problems mentioned in this thread are work in progress as well and many others are related to the game being still in alpha. Some actually are just due to is playing the game for thousands of hours already.

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by stallionsden View Post
                            Your very incorrect but it was a suggestion also to make the game better and more replayable and actually fix that issue of the game... having to visit the dungeon poi is repetitive and boring after the first or second visit. repetitive and down right boring part of the game cause you know where things are. If you actually read the lights of the dungeon poi is more so tho what i was talking bout giving the players the answers to which path to go. remove the lights and you have a better outcome in the game. rather then again giving the answers to the players. so you are dead wrong there :-) nothing to do with nerfing that wont fix anything once again wrong. randomising and removing the lights that give the path will how ever improve the excitement as well as adding new game play that is exciting and again replayable.
                            I have the feeling you misunderstood my post.
                            You were stating multiple times in this thread that the game is less challenging than it was in previous alphas. One of the reasons you are naming is how the paths in the new POI are easy to find. You are also saying that those POI don't provide replayability.
                            I was adressing those points. The paths in the old POI were even easier to find, since you could reach each room at any time. There was no path, there was just easy and instant access to every room in the house. Yes the new POI aren't a big challenge, but the old ones weren't challenging as well.
                            But more important is the second part, since that's what I quoted: You said that they lack replayability. While I do agree that they get old over time, my point is that the old POI got old even faster, since as I already said you had easy and instant access to all rooms back then. So while you are right that the current POI can be improved, they still provide more replayability than the old POI.

                            But I'll have to ask, since you didn't actually respond on my point (the old POI got old faster than the new POI do), why exactly is that "very incorrect" and am I "dead wrong"?

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                              I have the feeling you misunderstood my post.
                              You were stating multiple times in this thread that the game is less challenging than it was in previous alphas. One of the reasons you are naming is how the paths in the new POI are easy to find. You are also saying that those POI don't provide replayability.
                              I was adressing those points. The paths in the old POI were even easier to find, since you could reach each room at any time. There was no path, there was just easy and instant access to every room in the house. Yes the new POI aren't a big challenge, but the old ones weren't challenging as well.
                              But more important is the second part, since that's what I quoted: You said that they lack replayability. While I do agree that they get old over time, my point is that the old POI got old even faster, since as I already said you had easy and instant access to all rooms back then. So while you are right that the current POI can be improved, they still provide more replayability than the old POI.

                              But I'll have to ask, since you didn't actually respond on my point (the old POI got old faster than the new POI do), why exactly is that "very incorrect" and am I "dead wrong"?
                              Cause the old pois had zs around them they actually provided challenge to get into. I never said i dont like the addition of the new dungeon pois was excited when i knew they were coming but unfort the execution of them were poor. As in all the stuff i mentioned previously.

                              But they are also catered for the new players to make the game very easy. But with the imrovements we have mentioned that element will add longevity to the replayability. Then add actual zs in around them etc

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by stallionsden View Post
                                Cause the old pois had zs around them they actually provided challenge to get into.
                                Not really. Breaking a door and placing a wood frame on the floor inside where the door was would keep them out long enough to easily loot the house. I'm not saying I wouldn't love to have more zombies in the yard around the house. I've modded my game to get that, in fact.

                                But, there were serious problems with the POI's as they used to be that made them inferior, in my opinion, to what we have now. That said, I'm not trying to diminish or stifle the call to improve what we have now.

                                Here are the problems of the past as I saw them:

                                1) Zombies inside the house came out immediately, leaving the house empty because they weren't asleep and when one zombie knew where you were all of them did.

                                2) Zombies outside the house were easily blocked from coming in. Just fill the door with wood blocks and you would have plenty of time to loot everything and get out before any zombies could get in. Running around until all the zombies came out and then barricading the door and looting the open shell of an interior was neither challenging nor an uncommon tactic.

                                3) Zombie pathing was trash. I've read a lot of mixed reviews for the new zombie pathing in regards to Horde Night but almost universal praise for how the pathing has enhanced POI exploration since the zombies feel relentless as they come for you. Zombies from outside almost never could break into the POI to get you and if they did then they were horrible at navigating the POI to get to where you were. Now, if one does come from outside there is a very good chance that in a few minutes it will be behind you coming from where you thought it was clear. Yes, the odd one or two will choose a bizarre path to get to you instead of just walking through the open door next to it but for the most part the way zombies path to you through POIs make it more thrilling.

                                4) Any and all threats in a room viewable and killable from the doorway. This was mostly true during the time that we had sleepers but very few dungeon POI's. Most of the POI's were still the old style and all the sleepers were just lying there out in the open and easily dispatched from the door before even entering the room. Before that it made no difference because any zombies that spawned indoors would bust their way outside and the POIs were largely empty as you explored. Even in the way back time when zombies would run when in shade or indoors you could go to the factory in the wasteland and enter it and they would all drop from above and rush you and if you exited the factory they would follow (suddenly walking) and the whole big (completely open) place would be empty. Barricade the door they all came out of and loot away.

                                Now, that doesn't mean I like the light path, or half of all loot containers being open and static blocks, or obvious zombie closets etc.
                                Last edited by Roland; 02-12-2020, 12:05 AM.

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