Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Catering to New Players hurts Replayability for Experienced Players

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    Originally posted by Roland View Post
    Not really. Breaking a door and placing a wood frame on the floor inside where the door was would keep them out long enough to easily loot the house. I'm not saying I wouldn't love to have more zombies in the yard around the house. I've modded my game to get that, in fact.

    But, there were serious problems with the POI's as they used to be that made them inferior, in my opinion, to what we have now. That said, I'm not trying to diminish or stifle the call to improve what we have now.

    Here are the problems of the past as I saw them:

    1) Zombies inside the house came out immediately, leaving the house empty because they weren't asleep and when one zombie knew where you were all of them did.

    2) Zombies outside the house were easily blocked from coming in. Just fill the door with wood blocks and you would have plenty of time to loot everything and get out before any zombies could get in. Running around until all the zombies came out and then barricading the door and looting the open shell of an interior was neither challenging nor an uncommon tactic.

    3) Zombie pathing was trash. I've read a lot of mixed reviews for the new zombie pathing in regards to Horde Night but almost universal praise for how the pathing has enhanced POI exploration since the zombies feel relentless as they come for you. Zombies from outside almost never could break into the POI to get you and if they did then they were horrible at navigating the POI to get to where you were. Now, if one does come from outside there is a very good chance that in a few minutes it will be behind you coming from where you thought it was clear. Yes, the odd one or two will choose a bizarre path to get to you instead of just walking through the open door next to it but for the most part the way zombies path to you through POIs make it more thrilling.

    4) Any and all threats in a room viewable and killable from the doorway. This was mostly true during the time that we had sleepers but very few dungeon POI's. Most of the POI's were still the old style and all the sleepers were just lying there out in the open and easily dispatched from the door before even entering the room. Before that it made no difference because any zombies that spawned indoors would bust their way outside and the POIs were largely empty as you explored. Even in the way back time when zombies would run when in shade or indoors you could go to the factory in the wasteland and enter it and they would all drop from above and rush you and if you exited the factory they would follow (suddenly walking) and the whole big (completely open) place would be empty. Barricade the door they all came out of and loot away.

    Now, that doesn't mean I like the light path, or half of all loot containers being open and static blocks, or obvious zombie closets etc.
    Ok you nor understand. What i was pointing at was the life around the pois. Nothing to do with the actual poi itself.... but least those pois didnt have the path lit up where to go etc either.

    The dungeon pois were a fantastic addition but poorly executed and the lights floored the possible greatness they could have been to those old pois but the life has vanished from around the house.

    Understand now lol. Previous alphas were harder as there was life. Now if you mix the life of previous alphas with this you have life and more challenge before entering.

    The zs also damaged blocks to get in back then to if you didnt kill them all before entering.

    Comment


      I don't like those lights either. But I also don't need them. I never had much problem finding the way and I also never had any scrupels to simply go through a wall or floor if I didn't want to follow the official way. I have a friend who has a very bad sense of direction who gets lost from time to time in big buildings. But he lost the way even though there were those lights. And walls don't hinder him either.

      Yes, the lights make an easy task, i.e. following the way, even easier. But following the way isn't even that important in 7D2D.

      My point: Removing the lights won't make much difference, especially for us experienced players who have memorized mosts buildings anyway. Immersion would be better. Maybe there would not be the feeling that someone thinks we are blind idiots. But that's it.

      Comment


        Originally posted by meganoth View Post
        I don't like those lights either. But I also don't need them. I never had much problem finding the way and I also never had any scrupels to simply go through a wall or floor if I didn't want to follow the official way. I have a friend who has a very bad sense of direction who gets lost from time to time in big buildings. But he lost the way even though there were those lights. And walls don't hinder him either.

        Yes, the lights make an easy task, i.e. following the way, even easier. But following the way isn't even that important in 7D2D.

        My point: Removing the lights won't make much difference, especially for us experienced players who have memorized mosts buildings anyway. Immersion would be better. Maybe there would not be the feeling that someone thinks we are blind idiots. But that's it.
        Thats why the dungeon pois need to have randomisation to it. So you could go to the same ppi multiple times but inside be completely different to the last one.

        Been mentioned a few times also this will solve that memorising paths etc and also have a few paths in the poi one way be the right way but the other 2 lead to traps/dead ends and have zs wake up when you chose the wrong path they come from behind ypu making your way blocked and thus exciting scary and makes the player chose carefully

        Comment


          Originally posted by stallionsden View Post
          What i was pointing at was the life around the pois.
          As far as we know that's something that is worked on, so I don't really get the problem here. Wouldn't make more sense to wait and see how that turns out rather than acting as if it is a design direction to exclude outside zombies? In the end it's an alpha, so it's normal that some things are temporary. Thanks to how TFP handles the early access we have the chance to play a previous alpha if in the current alpha something is gone we consider vital to the game.

          Originally posted by stallionsden View Post
          but least those pois didnt have the path lit up where to go etc either.
          They didn't need to, since you had instant access to every corner of a house. The current POI have a somewhat restricted access and some hazards like breaking floors and mines. If that isn't already an improvement, I don't know what is. Of course there still is room for more improvement, but you acting like it's a deterioration.

          Originally posted by stallionsden View Post
          Understand now lol. Previous alphas were harder as there was life.
          I only know about A15, A16 and A17, but at least those weren't actually harder. They were more lively (at least A15 was) and I prefer it that way, but clearing POI was a joke in A15. Do a circle around the house to collect all zombies, line them up and club through them isn't challenging. Afterwards making a step into the house, alarm the zombies and kill them all when they leave the house isn't challenging as well. Even if something went wrong you could easily just jump onto your bike (since you are already outside and thus near your bike) drive away and get yourself patched up. Also that tactic wasn't even needed due to zombies being easy to kill anyway.
          Now in A18 you have to actively reduce the numbers of zombies you pull at once, since you often have to fight in small rooms and there is no bike for safety beneath you. Some routes include plattforming, so while it is possible to lure zombies in less condensed spaces you often have to create a path first, so you don't accidently walk into a mine or fall down and break your leg.

          Originally posted by stallionsden View Post
          The zs also damaged blocks to get in back then to if you didnt kill them all before entering.
          And as soon as outside zombies are added back into the game they will do that as well. They also will be even more efficient than they were before due to the improved ai.


          Originally posted by meganoth View Post
          I don't like those lights either. But I also don't need them. I never had much problem finding the way and I also never had any scrupels to simply go through a wall or floor if I didn't want to follow the official way. I have a friend who has a very bad sense of direction who gets lost from time to time in big buildings. But he lost the way even though there were those lights. And walls don't hinder him either.

          Yes, the lights make an easy task, i.e. following the way, even easier. But following the way isn't even that important in 7D2D.

          My point: Removing the lights won't make much difference, especially for us experienced players who have memorized mosts buildings anyway. Immersion would be better. Maybe there would not be the feeling that someone thinks we are blind idiots. But that's it.
          This! Including the Ryoga Hibiki friend.

          Comment


            Originally posted by stallionsden View Post
            Thats why the dungeon pois need to have randomisation to it. So you could go to the same ppi multiple times but inside be completely different to the last one.
            Complete randomisation would be looking bad, really bad. In order to get it somewhat appealing they would've to go with modules. As soon as we memorize all the modules we are back to where we are now including worse looking POI. I fail to see how that would improve anything. It would just limit inside and outside design of POI.
            I'm not saying that it's impossible to get a decent randomisation of houses done, but that would require an awful lot of time. Do you want the game to release this decade or the next?

            Comment


              Dungeon randomisation is for next game (possibly). Not gonna happen in 7dtd.

              Cheers

              Comment


                Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                As far as we know that's something that is worked on, so I don't really get the problem here. Wouldn't make more sense to wait and see how that turns out rather than acting as if it is a design direction to exclude outside zombies? In the end it's an alpha, so it's normal that some things are temporary. Thanks to how TFP handles the early access we have the chance to play a previous alpha if in the current alpha something is gone we consider vital to the game.

                I dont need a lecture on what an alpha is i understand what an alpha is. You obviously completely miss the whole points of this thread completely and this also isnt the first alpha i been in or am involved in..


                They didn't need to, since you had instant access to every corner of a house. The current POI have a somewhat restricted access and some hazards like breaking floors and mines. If that isn't already an improvement, I don't know what is. Of course there still is room for more improvement, but you acting like it's a deterioration.

                Again you totally miss the points again and have no clue

                I only know about A15, A16 and A17, but at least those weren't actually harder. They were more lively (at least A15 was) and I prefer it that way, but clearing POI was a joke in A15. Do a circle around the house to collect all zombies, line them up and club through them isn't challenging. Afterwards making a step into the house, alarm the zombies and kill them all when they leave the house isn't challenging as well. Even if something went wrong you could easily just jump onto your bike (since you are already outside and thus near your bike) drive away and get yourself patched up. Also that tactic wasn't even needed due to zombies being easy to kill anyway.
                Now in A18 you have to actively reduce the numbers of zombies you pull at once, since you often have to fight in small rooms and there is no bike for safety beneath you. Some routes include plattforming, so while it is possible to lure zombies in less condensed spaces you often have to create a path first, so you don't accidently walk into a mine or fall down and break your leg.

                According to you and again you dont understand what others have stated and discussed with you

                And as soon as outside zombies are added back into the game they will do that as well. They also will be even more efficient than they were before due to the improved ai.

                Again you completely miss the points given and go on your own tangent...

                This! Including the Ryoga Hibiki friend.
                Replies in red

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                  Complete randomisation would be looking bad, really bad. In order to get it somewhat appealing they would've to go with modules. As soon as we memorize all the modules we are back to where we are now including worse looking POI. I fail to see how that would improve anything. It would just limit inside and outside design of POI.
                  I'm not saying that it's impossible to get a decent randomisation of houses done, but that would require an awful lot of time. Do you want the game to release this decade or the next?
                  Again you have no idea on how that would work and no that isnt how it would work (well unless you were a lazy developer). Again you completely miss the points and any understanding. It is completely possible. Was stated even able to make 1000s more pois so doing this wouldnt take much more as well. quite easily do 500 new pois and do randomnisation.

                  As much as I cant wait for gold. Rather wait and have the game cater for all not just newbs and improve the outcome of the game before gold. isnt that what we all are here for. I not the only one who knows this would improve the game ten fold. and only a couple stating it wouldnt. Thats your view but many others dont share that..

                  - - - Updated - - -

                  Originally posted by Prisma501 View Post
                  Dungeon randomisation is for next game (possibly). Not gonna happen in 7dtd.

                  Cheers
                  Well wont hurt to keep bringing it up cause it def make the game 1000 times better.

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by stallionsden View Post

                    - - - Updated - - -



                    Well wont hurt to keep bringing it up cause it def make the game 1000 times better.
                    Its called a dead horse. Remember LBD? Thats another one.

                    Keep beating it man, all cool with me. Thing bout dead horses is though, they really dont move anymore.

                    Cheers

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by Prisma501 View Post
                      Its called a dead horse. Remember LBD? Thats another one.

                      Keep beating it man, all cool with me. Thing bout dead horses is though, they really dont move anymore.

                      Cheers
                      Far out dead horses dont move lol... since when.. you really need to stop looking thru my window at night man thats creepy as hell

                      Well you obviously missed alot of the gates obviously. the more people talk bout something the more the devs notice that it is wholly supported by many.

                      same with any real life protest like womens rights, gay and lesbian rights etc all changed with people supporting it.

                      Comment


                        Stallions, you are saying that the devs have reduced the amount of life in and around POIs and made changes such as the lighted path and list crafting instead of the grid and basically hand out guns and ammo like candy all in order to make the game more appealing to brand new players. These changes make the game less replayable for everyone and especially for old timers who remember the way the game used to be.

                        Is that correct?

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by stallionsden View Post
                          Far out dead horses dont move lol... since when.. you really need to stop looking thru my window at night man thats creepy as hell

                          Well you obviously missed alot of the gates obviously. the more people talk bout something the more the devs notice that it is wholly supported by many.

                          same with any real life protest like womens rights, gay and lesbian rights etc all changed with people supporting it.
                          Problem is you think you represent a overwhelming majority with your virtual gang of oldtimers (because facebook) and dismiss the /counter/ protesters (including 5K oldtimers like me) that state they are still enjoying the game in its current form and form that is still to come because of what the devs they is gonna make it into the game. They /just/ dont get it. They /must/ like it easy. And they /obviously/ missed all the gates. Speak your mind, its really okey. Just stop putting fake weight to your opinion by acting like the whole world agrees with you. And please honor those who tell you they think differently. You dont need to dismiss them just so it looks like your point has more value.

                          Cheers

                          Comment


                            Originally posted by Prisma501 View Post
                            Problem is you think you represent a overwhelming majority with your virtual gang of oldtimers (because facebook) and dismiss the /counter/ protesters (including 5K oldtimers like me) that state they are still enjoying the game in its current form and form that is still to come because of what the devs they is gonna make it into the game. They /just/ dont get it. They /must/ like it easy. And they /obviously/ missed all the gates. Speak your mind, its really okey. Just stop putting fake weight to your opinion by acting like the whole world agrees with you. And please honor those who tell you they think differently. You dont need to dismiss them just so it looks like your point has more value.

                            Cheers
                            I agree with him in essence.

                            Comment


                              Originally posted by n2n1 View Post
                              I agree with him in essence.
                              Cool i guess? Ghostlight does too. We all know that. Whats your point?

                              Cheers

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Prisma501 View Post
                                Its called a dead horse. Remember LBD? Thats another one.

                                Keep beating it man, all cool with me. Thing bout dead horses is though, they really dont move anymore.

                                Cheers
                                come on
                                If she feels that someone needs her, she will return from the other world.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X