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    Originally posted by stallionsden View Post
    Thats why the dungeon pois need to have randomisation to it. So you could go to the same ppi multiple times but inside be completely different to the last one.

    Been mentioned a few times also this will solve that memorising paths etc and also have a few paths in the poi one way be the right way but the other 2 lead to traps/dead ends and have zs wake up when you chose the wrong path they come from behind ypu making your way blocked and thus exciting scary and makes the player chose carefully
    Yes. Sadly Madmole doesn't see the light and thinks one more POI is better than to produce 2-3 variants of the same POI even though a designer could probably do 5-10 of the latter in the same time as creating one new POI from the ground. I think he said that would be something he hopes modders would do.

    Originally posted by Jihh View Post
    Complete randomisation would be looking bad, really bad. In order to get it somewhat appealing they would've to go with modules. As soon as we memorize all the modules we are back to where we are now including worse looking POI. I fail to see how that would improve anything. It would just limit inside and outside design of POI.
    I'm not saying that it's impossible to get a decent randomisation of houses done, but that would require an awful lot of time. Do you want the game to release this decade or the next?
    There is actually a way to randomize POIs somewhat with minimal effort. You can create a different path and end room in a POI by just changing the holes/connections in two rooms (and redistribute the loot) ! Think of a rat maze, move one or two walls somewhere else and the maze is suddenly quite different.

    But Prisma501 is right with it being a dead horse at the moment. It actually would need a modder to do the work and prove that changing the POI that way (or any other way) actually works in "confusing" players.

    Comment


      Originally posted by Ghostlight View Post
      b) Once a player gets bored with Navesgane (assuming a noob actually starts with Navesgane), they will encounter the joys of the RWG. It baffles me that this absolutely key feature of the game has been allowed to be such a low priority item on the roadmap and be utterly crap for so long. First impressions (of the generated world) last forever. Coming from Navesgane to your first RWG is a shock to the system.
      Interesting perspective. You admit that RWG is worse design-wise than Navesgane which is a crafted world to the point that you list RWG as a reason why a new player might quit playing after they experience it. Yet you want the devs to switch from crafted POIs to randomly generated interiors.

      Madmole spoke to this recently and said that procedurally generates interiors of POIs would be extremely difficult to do and cause them to have to be more generic and bland in general to make sure most possible variations could work and not be a jumbled mass. .

      I’d like to correct your assumption that random gen has been low priority. It is a very high priority but comes with very difficult problems to solve. A randomly generated world or POI is never going to be able to compete design-wise with a hand crafted version.

      If they switched to random interiors you would probably switch to complaining about all the limitations of those POIs much as you are now when comparing RWG maps to Navesgane.

      Comment


        Originally posted by meganoth View Post
        There is actually a way to randomize POIs somewhat with minimal effort. You can create a different path and end room in a POI by just changing the holes/connections in two rooms (and redistribute the loot) ! Think of a rat maze, move one or two walls somewhere else and the maze is suddenly quite different.
        I would like that. I mean who wouldn't like more variety? As long as it get optimized rather than being in a rudimentary state, it would be a nice addition. But that's still far from houses being "complete different" on the inside.
        It also wouldn't really be a minimal effort. As soon as we start moving walls and thus all decorative items that are on the wall we have to make sure that those rooms still look real. So we'd need multiple versions of each room rather than just randomly placed doors/walls. There is still some work involved.
        I'm also unsure if that change would be sufficient, because we already can easily make our own pathways through the houses, if the predetermined path is too boring. So is the time needed for that change actually worth the outcome? Imho distributing the loot all over the house, a way less time consuming task, is the more important part and as Roland said it is something TFP talked about (if I remember correctly).

        Comment


          Originally posted by Roland View Post
          Madmole spoke to this recently and said that procedurally generates interiors of POIs would be extremely difficult to do and cause them to have to be more generic and bland in general to make sure most possible variations could work and not be a jumbled mass. .

          If they switched to random interiors you would probably switch to complaining about all the limitations of those POIs much as you are now when comparing RWG maps to Navesgane.
          Thanks.

          Comment


            Originally posted by Jihh View Post
            I would like that. I mean who wouldn't like more variety? As long as it get optimized rather than being in a rudimentary state, it would be a nice addition. But that's still far from houses being "complete different" on the inside.
            It also wouldn't really be a minimal effort. As soon as we start moving walls and thus all decorative items that are on the wall we have to make sure that those rooms still look real. So we'd need multiple versions of each room rather than just randomly placed doors/walls. There is still some work involved.
            Yes, it would be just moderate randomization for minimal work. That is what I assume. We'll never know until it is really tested. My hope would be that a player will not be able to memorize the layout of alternative POIs as easy because they are so similar to get mixed up in his memory.

            Making a new path means just adding a door or a broken wall or floor to a room, and maybe removing or adding a picture or a cupboard. A very finite effort of changing about 2 (a door) to say 10 blocks (closing or opening a broken wall, moving furniture). It might not work well everywhere but the designer is free to find rooms and walls that work best.

            Originally posted by Jihh View Post
            I'm also unsure if that change would be sufficient, because we already can easily make our own pathways through the houses, if the predetermined path is too boring. So is the time needed for that change actually worth the outcome? Imho distributing the loot all over the house, a way less time consuming task, is the more important part and as Roland said it is something TFP talked about (if I remember correctly).
            I don't remember exactly either, but my impression was more that it was an idea contemplated but then not agreed upon by the devs. Anyone knows the facts?

            Comment


              Originally posted by Jihh View Post
              I tend to not pull all zombies at once. But even when I happen to pull more than I want to, I seldom die. Not counting my 50 hours in the game I usually die once (or twice with bad luck) per game and play on average 70-100 days (with 60 minutes each) per game. Even in my A15 game on highest difficulty with zombies running day and night and my base next to the central city I died once (due to an accidently missclick) in somewhat over 80 days with (if I remember correctly) 90 minutes a day (yes I had longer days, because I expected it to be more challenging).

              Zombies aren't the challenge in the game. Not doing stupid things are the challenge. Almost all of my deaths after I knew all mechanics were due to doing stupid things.

              Why though? Clear the zombies from a range where the bears won't trigger and afterwards they are easily manageable. Use obstacles to your advantage like you would do in real life.
              That you can kill all kinds of enemies with the right strategies and staying out of their range and pulling them one by one and so on is true. But that's not what I'm talking about. My endgame is me going General Kenobi on their asses, with only one obstacle, that is a pistol with a full stack of ammo. Once I have that, I can deal with anything without having to be smart, I just pew pew them in the Gulliver.

              I assume that's not working with a bow until a video proves me wrong.

              Originally posted by Jihh View Post
              But before A17 the bow was overpowered af. Clubs and sledgehammers even more. In A18 I'll have to find a gun to be as strong as I were in A15/16 after crafting a bow, a stone axe (to get a handful of iron from a few rocks in order to craft a better club) and a club. So how is an early gun in A17/18 a bigger problem than the overpowered bows and clubs were in A15/16? In the end in both cases you had/have a powerful weapon on day 1. I feel like you aren't looking at the actual power those weapons provide in the game in the respective alphas, but at the power those weapons would provide in real life. But important for the balance and thus challenge of the game is the actual ingame power in relation to the respective alpha.
              The early A18 gun just takes the spot the early A15 bow had, while the early A18 bow is weaker. So while I agree that there is too much ammo in the game right now (especially since I don't even use it, but friends do and they can't use it as fast as I produce, loot and buy it), it actually makes sense to provide the A18 gun with the same amount of ammo the A15 bow had. But since TFP is looking at the numbers and probably will nerf ammo gains (if I understood it correctly) that's just a temporary problem. That can happen in a game that's still in alpha.
              I just made a lil experiment: In 10 seconds, I can fire roughly 5 arrows (it's actually 4.something) with the primitive bow. In 10 seconds, I can fire the pistol roughly 20 times (it was actually 22). According to the ingame information, a lvl 1 primitive bow with a stone arrow has a ranged damage of 19, a level 1 pistol with regular "9mm Ammo" has a ranged damage of 33. That means that in 10 seconds, I can deal

              5 x 19 = 95 damage with the bow
              20 x 33 = 660 damage with the pistol
              that is 565 more damage with the pistol

              If I understand it right, with no bought perks, the headshot damage is 200% of the base damage for both weapons, that means

              5 x 19 x 2 = 190 damage with the bow
              20 x 33 x 2 = 1320 damage with the pistol
              that is 1130 more damage with the pistol

              Pistol >>>>>>> bow.

              Originally posted by Jihh View Post
              But as Roland already said, they are looking into it.
              But now they are a problem. One that you seem to wish to discuss in depth, even though you agree it's a problem.

              Originally posted by Jihh View Post
              I'm not sure, if I understood that correctly, but if you are talking about outside zombies:
              Sleeper zombies were introduced in A16 along with fewer outside zombies. I had more outside zombies in A15 and yes I actually miss them a lot. But I already adressed that in the part you quoted:"At least if we ignore the lack of outside zeds, but as we know that's work in progress."
              So I agree that this is a problem the game has right now, but since it's subject to change, we just have to wait. It's not like they aren't coming back ever. Does it hurt A18? Definitely! But judging the overall direction of a game on things that are temporary gone in an alpha, doesn't really make sense.
              No, regarding "changes" overall, I'm talking about the old map-design, that was approximately ten bazillion times more interesting than what we have today. I think it was still around in A15, do you know these "hub-cities":

              https://youtu.be/0kle1KVPYM4?t=360

              It's not just the hub-cities that were great, but simply the overall design of the world, with different hubs, and not every town/city being practically identical. The loss of this is a lot more unfortunate than the early guns that we're spending so much time discussing here (while it's really a given that in a bloody survival game you shouldn't be decked out with weapons, ammo, food and armor on the first day).

              Look at the atmosphere of the video. It's an actual zombie apocalypse in a metropolis. It was the greatest thing. We don't have that anymore. Well, I think 1 cityesque city is still in Navezgane, minus the endless spawn of course. A12 was an awesome alpha, also because the zombies were still actual zombies, and creepy, unlike the terribly animated parodies that arrived soon after. I also love the goreblocks (those fleshy terrain blocks that the lootable zombie corpses turn into). And of course the UI, so much more immersive.

              All these mechanics and designs updated and merged with the good things that came after would make such a fantastic experience. New players don't even know what they are missing.

              Btw - just chatting - I came across this video:

              https://youtu.be/FJkCy6TJsA0?t=479

              It's so hilarious, he's entering that appartment, and then the junk-turret is firing, what, 20-30 rounds 5 meters away from a door, behind which - 9:25 - a zombie is "sleeping". Then - 9:45 - he fires at that zombie with a MAGNUM, and hits the door, that is practically touching the zombie. But the zombie doesn't even wake up. It's actually funny, just like, obviously, the green glowing appearance of the radiated zombies. That - seriously! - heal themselves over time. Because radiation has healing powers. Wasn't it Marie Curie who found that out.

              *facepalm* + *sigh*

              Originally posted by Jihh View Post
              So a bow and a club were endgame in A15.
              No, a pistol with all the ammo I needed was.

              Comment


                Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                How would you know that in an unknown house? The only reason you know it in the game is because you were in the house before in another game.
                If you need a reason why I know it, I can just make one up. Very easy. Someone told me. So, that's why I know it. And - which is the point - if I knew, I would go there. In game I know it because the house is not unknown. The game's devs know that as soon as I have played the game once, the house is not unknown anymore. So they should consider that and make sure it's not 100% forseeable where treasure rooms are. It's even relatively simple, you can randomize loot containers. All the crates already are random, they can be food, guns, tools or meds. They also could be trashbags. It's easy to remove the treasure rooms.

                Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                You could never be certain. It's like those people who keep dangerous pets. On some cases never something happens on other cases it does, no matter how certain they were about how their pets behave. In a life or death situation like we have in the game I would never count on all zombies behaving the same way.
                If you knew that Zombies behave a certain way, for example get stuck in a loop when you build a simple staircase, you would build a simple staircase. You would, just like I do in game, make sure that you don't die when the staircase fails, but you would build the simple structure to outwit the zombies. And so I do, and it's enough.

                The bottom line is that if you knew a simple solution to a problem, you would use the solution. It is unsatisfying when the game is only a challenge and enjoyable when I pretend not to know the solution.

                You already agree there is too much loot. Let's move on to the AI. Do you think an AI that is less forseeable would be better th an what we have now?

                Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                Then let's hope they will spread the loot all over the POI and get rid of loot rooms.
                That would be much better, but going through a POI is no problem either, bee lining to the treasure room is just "even faster". Only spreading loot all over the POI means we would still have great loot all over the place (aka in too many POIs). There simply is too much such loot.

                Unfortunately, they sorta navigated themselves into a bit of a corner with the sleeper concept. If you go through a house with 20 sleepers, it's a risk and has a cost, particularly when you cannot rely on cheap weapons like melee anymore, because you have feral or radiated zombz. So if you go through a house and take a risk and expend resources and get no reward, you have a point calling that unsatisfying. I'm not 100% sure about it, might be interesting, but you'd have at least a point. Would the number of sleepers indicate that a POI has good loot, again we have the issue of people knowing where the good loot is. I would certainly find myself going from POI to POI and then only loot those that indicate themselves as rich in loot.

                Therefor, I say, the general concept of having sleepers all over the place is a mistake. The majority of zombies should be outside, and should be spawned by and around houses, so it is a problem to go into towns and cities, and you'd have to get rid of zombies before you can get into houses (like it was the case before being replaced with sleepers). Or lure them away first, for example with noise producing devices to draw them to a certain location. Like "in the movies".

                Inside houses, a very few sleepers should appear, and these should be designed to give the player a fright. You shouldn't just know that in the next room there are 5 construction workers and on the roof is a radiated cop and so on. Sneaky sleepers should jump out of walls, fall out of ceilings and provide jump scares. Which, though, they only can if you cannot be sure they are there. They need to be relatively rare and random, so even in the same house you cannot be sure. It would already be enough if you would encounter one such sleeper in, say, five houses.

                Only on top of that and regulated by quests, that are either triggered by random POIs themselves and/or given by the trader, houses full of sleepers should be a thing, because yes, it is fun too to clear a building of zombies, and only once done, one should receive an appropriate reward. Since you could get them from traders, you still could clear houses full of sleepers all day long, if that's what you enjoy. The "just find the box that is conveniently marked on your compass"-quests need to go completly, I had lvl 5 quests of this type where I found that box within literally a minute. Too easy, needs to go.

                Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                Yes, I don't like loot rooms. I mean I usually clear houses completely, but of course I know where the loot is and thus there is some incentive to just go there. But it's not the loot rooms that take away the challenge, but my knowledge where those loot rooms are and how to get to them without encountering zombies.
                Like I said, going through houses on day 1 is no challenge for experienced video game players. I don't even need to know 7dtd, if I have good aim and understood how the basic weapons work, I can kill the day 1 trashmobs. And once I (me personally) have a pistol, I have good reason to go through houses and kill em all anyways, to begin with, because I enjoy it, but also because of the xp-reward.

                Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                Even if they would get rid of those loot rooms and distribute the loot over the whole houses there still would be some rooms more interesting than others. In a game where we can destroy everything with ease and nerdpole to any height we want to, they can never keep us from using knowledge we wouldn't have in real life. That's the price we pay for the freedom we have. And that problem already existed in previous alphas.
                The problem did not exist before loot rooms, because then you had to be lucky to find a shop to begin with. Shops were rare. And before they removed that, shops would spawn zombies outside, so when you approached a shop, 10 - 20 zombies would appear to protect it. It was a great system, that was changed for the worse.

                Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                Aside from how difficult (if even possible with the power average computer provide) it is to make an ai outsmart players, it would be bad lore design if zombies would outsmart players. So of course we are supposed to outsmart zombies.
                Sure. But zombies were given intelligence, meaning, they do no longer just come for the player in a straight line, you know, like zombies, but understand what obstacles and traps are. And that is what the player can outsmart and use as an advantage. Obviously, right? Zombies should have no intelligence that leads to a certain behaviour that the player can outsmart with as little effort as currently. In my opinion, zombies should behave like the zombies in Dawn of the Dead or The Walking Dead. They should be attracted by noise, smell, light and movement - and that's it. The danger comes from the numbers and that you don't know where they are and come from and where they attack. That you have to protect a base in all directions. Now you just leave an open gate. Or build a staircase with a kill corridor. Boring.

                Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                But there is a difference between playing the game and playing the system. I mean you do you, I don't care how you play your game. But complaining about a lack of challenge when you are playing the (not even done) system, is something I don't understand.
                How is the game not the system? Would I want to not play the system, I would still have play the system, because I would have to ignore the system very specifically. For example do I know that zombies will go through any opening. So I leave no opening. Then I know that zombies go for the weakest spot, so I have to make sure there is no weakest spot. And then I would grind for materials and spend time building defenses, knowing that I don't actually need all that. If I can afford "all that" to begin with, because the game is (probably) balanced so that you can't have enough traps to protect a not-tiny base from all sides.

                Overall, the much better solution is that the devs change the ai to something less forseeable.

                Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                I don't even get why you are calling it roleplaying to play the game instead of the system. I guess we have a completely different take on what games are and I don't think that any alpha will ever meet your expectations, since alphas usually are in a state where playing the system is at easy as it gets, since preventing it isn't the highest priority.
                I call it roleplaying because I have to pretend being someone I am not: Someone who does not know how zombies behave. And I was very happy with many alphas and played several thousand hours, so your thought about my mindset is false.

                Originally posted by Jihh View Post
                Of course you can. I did it too. I was discussing the crafting situation (no Q6 crafting) and how overpowered Lucky Looter is. Roland was stating that loot numbers are being looked at, but that it will take some time. I'm still not convinced that tweaking some numbers will actually solve the problems I have, but there is no point to further discuss it until those tweaks are in and tested.
                That said, many of the problems mentioned in this thread are work in progress as well and many others are related to the game being still in alpha. Some actually are just due to is playing the game for thousands of hours already.
                And I think most of the problems, if not all, are related to bad design changes. The "but it's alpha"-angle works to a degree. If things change for the better, I'll be happy and happy to admit it. But now I judge what I see now, and providing feedback, well, should be appreciated by the devs.

                Comment


                  Originally posted by Prisma501 View Post
                  Anyways. Good luck with your fight. You dont play anymore so nothing lost if you dont /win/ right?

                  MM stated and Roland confirmed and repeated multiple times that vanilla will not get changed to cater oldtimers with 1000+ hours.
                  You want vanilla to cater the oldtimers.

                  You want what the owner says wont happen.
                  If I am not mistaken, "catering to X" means doing something with the conscious intention to service X. Making the game easier with the conscious intention to make the game easier for new players equals "catering to new players". And it is obviously motivated by the desire to sell more copies.

                  What equals "catering to old timers"? Making the game harder with the conscious decision to provide old timers with a new challenge.

                  Now who is asking for that? Maybe some are, I haven't seen it, link please - all I see is ppl asking the devs not to disservice old timers by making the game too easy because they want to cater to new players. And that is a very different situation than "well, we're not going to make changes just so that the people who are bored after 1000 hours are challenged again", and I dare to suspect that the actual situation is twisted into the very different one so that the actual situation can be ignored conveniently. Because if we do not ignore the actual situation, we kinda have to explain why it's allright to walk all over the old timers, to whom, does it not?, the company owes it's success in the first place.

                  And of course, yes, if anything that's a dead horse, we all now that it's never "all". Not "all" old timers are unhappy, not "all" new players want it easy. Needless to say, really, such common knowledge, that one does not even have to make any effort to point that out overly precisely.


                  Originally posted by Prisma501 View Post
                  As said, good luck with that. Ill just keep on playing and wish you luck.
                  That's really very nice of you. Right?

                  Comment


                    Originally posted by Kubikus View Post

                    That's really very nice of you. Right?
                    Yes.

                    Cheers

                    Comment


                      Originally posted by meganoth View Post
                      It actually would need a modder to do the work and prove that changing the POI that way (or any other way) actually works in "confusing" players.
                      They will have to prove the obvious, in other words.

                      As for whether it's difficult or not, I have no idea what kind of internal tools do they have and how they populate the world with prefabs, but in practice there are many different easy ways to randomize them.

                      Originally posted by Roland View Post
                      Interesting perspective. You admit that RWG is worse design-wise than Navesgane which is a crafted world to the point that you list RWG as a reason why a new player might quit playing after they experience it. Yet you want the devs to switch from crafted POIs to randomly generated interiors.

                      Madmole spoke to this recently and said that procedurally generates interiors of POIs would be extremely difficult to do and cause them to have to be more generic and bland in general to make sure most possible variations could work and not be a jumbled mass.

                      I’d like to correct your assumption that random gen has been low priority. It is a very high priority but comes with very difficult problems to solve. A randomly generated world or POI is never going to be able to compete design-wise with a hand crafted version.

                      If they switched to random interiors you would probably switch to complaining about all the limitations of those POIs much as you are now when comparing RWG maps to Navesgane.
                      Might feel like I am talking shenanigans but I want to be brief:

                      A randomized tiled floor with tiles having a specific pattern < A handcrafted tiled floor with tiles having a specific pattern < A randomized tiled floor with tiles having a randomized pattern. That's what he is saying.

                      Personally, many of TFP's design decisions and priorities completely baffle me, like in the case of their 17.0 rpg elements iteration, or in the case of how they ended up using sleepers. But, oh well, can you do.

                      Comment


                        Originally posted by Prisma501 View Post
                        Yes.
                        That's good to hear. I was a bit unsure tbh.

                        Comment


                          Originally posted by Kubikus View Post
                          If I am not mistaken, "catering to X" means doing something with the conscious intention to service X. Making the game easier with the conscious intention to make the game easier for new players equals "catering to new players". And it is obviously motivated by the desire to sell more copies.

                          What equals "catering to old timers"? Making the game harder with the conscious decision to provide old timers with a new challenge.

                          Now who is asking for that? Maybe some are, I haven't seen it, link please - all I see is ppl asking the devs not to disservice old timers by making the game too easy because they want to cater to new players. And that is a very different situation than "well, we're not going to make changes just so that the people who are bored after 1000 hours are challenged again", and I dare to suspect that the actual situation is twisted into the very different one so that the actual situation can be ignored conveniently. Because if we do not ignore the actual situation, we kinda have to explain why it's allright to walk all over the old timers, to whom, does it not?, the company owes it's success in the first place.

                          And of course, yes, if anything that's a dead horse, we all now that it's never "all". Not "all" old timers are unhappy, not "all" new players want it easy. Needless to say, really, such common knowledge, that one does not even have to make any effort to point that out overly precisely.
                          I would ask, what equals "disservice to old timers" or "walk all over the old timers"? Does intention have anything to do it? So if TFP is making changes that they feel make the game better from their perspective but there is no ill intent towards anyone who has 1000s of hours would that be just an innocent "here's hoping old timers understand and still support us" or a more diabolical "lets walk all over them"?

                          Is the standard simply "if I feel walked on then I was walked on"?

                          As you pointed out nobody is saying ALL old timers feel spurned. So if it isn't a universal feeling of being screwed over then is it really real that anyone is actually being walked on?

                          Madmole has said a number of times that there will be some simplification particularly in the early game to make playing more intuitive and easy to understand but that he wants to add more complexity to mid and late game.

                          Sure, we are the ones who supported TFP while they were starting out and we have a reward in that we can remember the game how it once was. People starting in A18 can never get that. Sure they can go back but they won't appreciate Alpha 10 as the best version yet like we did when all we knew was Alpha 9. We can joke about all the broken legs in Alpha 11 and procedural caves that newbies will never have in their game. Would it be nice to have procedural caves now? Absolutely. But is TFP's decision to not include them born out of wanting to stick it to old timers who remember playing with procedural caves or is it purely because of technical limitations? What if the truth is that TFP couldn't figure out how to do caves well enough for the standard of quality they require in their game but someone feels personally offended that TFP was walking on them by cutting procedural caves and most of the people in his circle also felt abandoned because they loved procedural caves so much. Did TFP walk all over them by cutting procedural caves?

                          The Alpha disclaimer warns that a game in development may change into something you no longer are interested in playing. That is the risk of buying into early access. Can recent changes to increase the accessibility of the game really be defined as walking over early supporters when some of those supporters feel the game has never been better, some feel it's changed for the worse but is still fun, some don't care for it unless they use mods, and some won't ever play it again no matter what? There is such a wide spectrum of responses to the development process and all of us were warned when we pledged our money that the game could change into something we personally don't like.

                          I think we all agree on the fact that the game is being made to be more accessible to a wider audience. Some feel personally affronted by that and others don't. How much responsibility for being offended does the offended party bear in feeling offended?

                          When someone offends me and then I find out there was no mean intent and it wasn't an attack the offended feelings bleed out of me almost instantly. Is it enough to know that TFP isn't intentionally attacking anyone by making these changes?

                          Comment


                            I haven't read the whole thing but I just want to say this.

                            That feeling when you either found a forge house on day one or the book...
                            Or was brave and crazy enough to go into the hub city looking for tools/books/guns.
                            The minibike book in a trashcan... hallelujah

                            When I go into a house now I think, yeah, those cabinets sure have been opened and closed a lot since they were new when I came into this building in A11. ;P But hey, just follow the lights, who needs cabinets with surprises when you know where the good stuff is, right?

                            For me it has never been the same after the forge book got scrapped because people complained they couldn't find one fast enough. Then look harder or find a forge house but nope, no more book. But then people got the forge too soon and it was too easy. We'll put it behind a skillpoint wall. But now I need to lvl to unlock it. So now we are here.
                            Use the forge fluke...

                            This just my opinion and I think what the OP meant.

                            Comment


                              There is a forge book. If not in A18 definitely in A19. I've found it twice now.

                              Comment


                                Originally posted by Roland View Post
                                There is a forge book. If not in A18 definitely in A19. I've found it twice now.
                                So tfp are outsourcing something to do with the game cant recall mm said. But can they not out source the randomisation of dungeon pois as well thus giving them more time to work on other stuff thus gicing the game an i credible jump again. Since they dont want to do it or dont think the dungeon pois wpuld benefit. I think this thread proves it will enhance the game if done correctly. As well even those who disagree with the game being boring etc agreed the dungeon poi randomising would be great. Again i say all those that agreed with randomising.

                                Modders could even do it i guess but then the game have to be modded and thus some people wont play modded

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