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    A18 ai

    I took a break from the game while backpacking for almost a year through south america. Now i settled and decided to play again.

    So i start a game, find a building where i stock my stuff underground and i close a room which becomes my way to the roof. I upgrade everything to concrete and add somenl traps around. I have about 300 ak47 bullets, 100 for my shotgun and my pistol. Throw in some cocktakl molotovs and im ready for the first horde (worth mentioning: warrior difficulty, my days last 2 hours, zonbies do x2 dmg to blocks and x4 zombies on horde night)

    22hrs hit the clock, im already happy about hearing lightning and new immersion effects. So they start coming. At first its simple, shoot them when they are going through traps, but then there are no more traps.. so they start hitting the base, and there are too many to keep them away, so i focus on where they are most gathered when all of a sudden one starts hitting me from behind! He gets blasted away with the shotty, thats where i realize there is another gathering at the corner, and they jump on top of eachother.. these motherfxkers.. i molotiv that gathering, i shoot the first one but wait a second, there are more gatherings. The situation gets out of hand, zombies start slowly invading my roof, i run around and kill them but the gatherings grow bigger and more come up. There is no hope, fight until death. Soon ammo is depleted on the magazine and there is no time to reload, so i die.

    In previoua versions, all you had to do was stay on a floor above without stairs and you can survive easy. Now they find paths to you, different paths, and also different groups of them do different paths. I dont know how on earth people say the AI isnt better, its amazingly better.

    I enjoyed my death, im happy to see the game evolving so much.

    PS: Its probably fixed by now, but im never ever going to risk riding my bike through water!

    #2
    AI has become very predictable, you just need to find a point that they would just start to beat the tree instead of your base. Or make a maze - then you will have an ant farm.

    Comment


      #3
      Or choose not to exploit the AI in those ways and have a fun and thrilling horde night. That’s not to say, however, that TFP shouldn’t strive to close those exploits because they should. But in the meantime they are as avoidable as choosing not to type dm and cm into your console.

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        #4
        If there is a clear path to you, this new AI is no more adept at finding it than any previous AI was. However the new AI is far more predictable than the old AI and thus - once you know the rules by which it operates - extremely easy to exploit.

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          #5
          I seem to recall faatal mentioning that they were working on pathing some, and adding more random-ness to the path choices the zeds take.

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            #6
            In my experience so far (day 35 at 2 hour days) they come from different ways, they dont all follow the same path.
            As in everything, once you know the rules its easier to play the game, but i guess im happy i ignore the rules ao far, i hope it stays that way as long as possible lol

            Comment


              #7
              I'm still trying to figure out where that exploiting begins. Zombies behave so and so, but you have to pretend you don't know..? Is it not actually the point to build according to the behaviour?

              OP's description is kinda exemplary too: If you don't know how the AI works, they will overwhelm you, because of their increased intelligence. I agree that it creates an intense gaming experience, but having no chance because they will just find each and every weakness of your base, and not randomly, but with their omniscience and x-ray vision..? Ironically, this is much closer to cheating than when you build your base according to the zombies' behaviour. Imagine this was PVP and you attacked another player's base and knew exactly where the weakest blocks were and what the shortest path to the inner core was.

              To create something like this - how about events? Quests? "Defend this POI to your death - literally!" Without a penalty for your inevitable death, but an increased reward for every wave you survive.

              Comment


                #8
                I dont pretend i dont know, i really dont know because i havent played in a while. But again, how can you not learn behaviour, we play several iterations and hours of a game in which we supposedly just appeared. Its like the walking dead where they kill zombies with no problem because they learnt the behaviour. Therr is no way around human adaptative capabilities, or at least its very hard to overcome from an AI perspective for the developers.

                But I agree this AI is overly intelligent in those ways, but hey, we complain if its too dumb, if too intelligent , i think its normal they are smarter because it gives us more challenges and longer replayability. I really hated just getting to a 2nd floot, tearing down stairs and boom im safe forever. I like it this way and i think its a good path.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Originally posted by Wallghing View Post
                  I dont pretend i dont know, i really dont know because i havent played in a while.
                  I know. But once you have figured it out, how can you not build according to what you've learned. Why would you build so that you are in danger. It's a narrative regarding the forseeability of the new AI, some say you'd "exploit" the AI, which is kinda like cheating, which is kinda like saying "if you outsmart the AI, it's your own fault that the game is boring".

                  Originally posted by Wallghing View Post
                  But again, how can you not learn behaviour, we play several iterations and hours of a game in which we supposedly just appeared. Its like the walking dead where they kill zombies with no problem because they learnt the behaviour.
                  Yes, but the thing about the new AI is that you can practically control exactly where they are going. They will take the shortest path to the player's position, so you can just provide them with one. And then you build traps left and right to that path and they all die. You can also easily create loops, so that they run up a ramp, walk down a corridor, then fall down and go back to the ramp. All night.

                  Besides that, there is also the phenomenon that you can make them change direction. Say you stand on a certain block and the shortest path is so-and-so. They approach and once they are close, you can step on a 2nd block, maybe jump over a gap or so, and then they can't reach you anymore and will walk back and take the new shortest path. Once they are close, you go back to the first block you stood on and again, they will walk back. Not sure how that is in A18, though, it was certainly a thing in A17.

                  Originally posted by Wallghing View Post
                  Therr is no way around human adaptative capabilities, or at least its very hard to overcome from an AI perspective for the developers.
                  Zombies should behave like zombies, they should just be really dumb, exactly like in The Walking Dead. On horde night, they should attack randomly from all sides, they should not follow the easiest path, but (tend to) approach the player in a straight line. That way, you have to defend all sides and can not just perfect that one path.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Kubikus View Post

                    I know. But once you have figured it out, how can you not build according to what you've learned. Why would you build so that you are in danger. It's a narrative regarding the forseeability of the new AI, some say you'd "exploit" the AI, which is kinda like cheating, which is kinda like saying "if you outsmart the AI, it's your own fault that the game is boring".



                    Yes, but the thing about the new AI is that you can practically control exactly where they are going. They will take the shortest path to the player's position, so you can just provide them with one. And then you build traps left and right to that path and they all die. You can also easily create loops, so that they run up a ramp, walk down a corridor, then fall down and go back to the ramp. All night.

                    Besides that, there is also the phenomenon that you can make them change direction. Say you stand on a certain block and the shortest path is so-and-so. They approach and once they are close, you can step on a 2nd block, maybe jump over a gap or so, and then they can't reach you anymore and will walk back and take the new shortest path. Once they are close, you go back to the first block you stood on and again, they will walk back. Not sure how that is in A18, though, it was certainly a thing in A17.



                    Zombies should behave like zombies, they should just be really dumb, exactly like in The Walking Dead. On horde night, they should attack randomly from all sides, they should not follow the easiest path, but (tend to) approach the player in a straight line. That way, you have to defend all sides and can not just perfect that one path.
                    The zeds have ALWAYS been absolutely predictable. Load up an A16 game, make a pillbox with 1/2 blocks and 1/4 blocks on top. Move close to the blocks and EVERY zed will rush to that point.

                    Your point about making them backtrack also worked in A16. Better pathing does mean you can better place your traps to maximise their damage but there is simply no way that I can call previous AI better than what we have now in A18. Adding some more random behavior will overall improve the challenge but I don't think anyone really disagrees with that.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by FA_Q2 View Post

                      The zeds have ALWAYS been absolutely predictable. Load up an A16 game, make a pillbox with 1/2 blocks and 1/4 blocks on top. Move close to the blocks and EVERY zed will rush to that point.
                      I don't know what you are talking about, but in A16 and earlier, you could not design a path that they would certainly follow. That's the point here.

                      Originally posted by FA_Q2 View Post
                      Your point about making them backtrack also worked in A16. Better pathing does mean you can better place your traps to maximise their damage but there is simply no way that I can call previous AI better than what we have now in A18. Adding some more random behavior will overall improve the challenge but I don't think anyone really disagrees with that.
                      Of course you can like the new AI, and if the pathing gets more randomisation, I might start liking it too, but at this point - I don't. For the reasons I layed out in the post you reply to.

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                        #12
                        Who would win ? Some zombie horde ? Or a sloppy way to you with 0 wall ?

                        Worst thing with the new AI is that you can't even build a bunker without having a wandering horde ruining your map

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                          #13
                          Sticking with the whole zombie theme, when do we expect the horse to reanimate? I don't want to miss that.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by Roland View Post
                            Or choose not to exploit the AI in those ways and have a fun and thrilling horde night. That’s not to say, however, that TFP shouldn’t strive to close those exploits because they should. But in the meantime they are as avoidable as choosing not to type dm and cm into your console.
                            Completely neutral, no flame:
                            those two are not the same. I know you probably know, but this is something I have read way too often in the past to ignore it
                            One is a broken game mechanic and the other is cheating, as it is not part of the game.
                            Sorry to again start conflict but this is very important to me, as it is one of the core principles TFPs *edit*seem to*/edit* have not understood in my active days.
                            Yes they have to fix it BUT ppl are justified to complain/wine, if it ruins the game.

                            Trying to avoid casualties (this also includes ressources for rebuilding/repairing) should be one of THE key features in a horde survival game. And if this is so easy that you actually have to impose challenges yourself, its not good design. That doesnt make the whole game bad, but it could be a lot better if fixed.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Viktoriusiii View Post

                              Completely neutral, no flame:
                              those two are not the same. I know you probably know, but this is something I have read way too often in the past to ignore it
                              One is a broken game mechanic and the other is cheating, as it is not part of the game.
                              Sorry to again start conflict but this is very important to me, as it is one of the core principles TFPs *edit*seem to*/edit* have not understood in my active days.
                              Yes they have to fix it BUT ppl are justified to complain/wine, if it ruins the game.

                              Trying to avoid casualties (this also includes ressources for rebuilding/repairing) should be one of THE key features in a horde survival game. And if this is so easy that you actually have to impose challenges yourself, its not good design. That doesnt make the whole game bad, but it could be a lot better if fixed.
                              You're acting (or at least it seems so) like what we have is the final version and TFP's intended design and that what I am telling people to do is just ignore the exploits because that's the way it is always going to be.

                              Instead, I am saying that FOR THE TIME BEING while the AI is A WORK IN PROGRESS you can choose not to partake in the exploits if using those exploits bothers you. The proof is in the OP's report. He didn't know any exploits and didn't use them and had a thrill of a horde night. Are the exploits flaws in the design? Yes. Should they be fixed? Yes. But there is nothing wrong with using workarounds and utilizing our choice as players while we wait for the changes to occur.

                              Think about Dead is Dead. I can either come to the forums and complain about how it sucks that the game doesn't support natively a dead is dead mode or I can choose to delete my save and start over whenever I die. Not ideal and hopefully not the end product but certainly doable during development. TFP knows there is a desire for dead is dead mode and they have stated they will do it and I have given my opinion for it as feedback in the past. No need to be a broken record about it while we wait.

                              I agree that the there are too easily exploitable and predictable behaviors with the AI. I'm not going to spend the whole time from A17 until the day it is fixed in whatever future release it happens repeating over and over and over that it needs to be improved because I know TFP knows it, I know they've heard from the community about it and watched videos and streams highlighting it. But until they decide to get to i, it is as simple as not typing CM into the console as it is to not build ramps and simple structures designed to exploit the AI

                              Just don't build them. (as a temporary workaround until the AI is improved)

                              Or do if you it is fun for you.

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