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    Originally posted by WolfyBlah View Post
    Im not being offensive.

    And you do realise that what you wrote can litteraly be re-wrote as: i want players that can craft advanced materials to face the same combat challanges as someone who invests into more health, damage, stamina.

    Its litteraly punishing people with tougher zombies for not choosing to spend points in melee skills. They are facing tougher enemies with weaker player stats and getting a more difficult experience because they dont take perks related to combat.

    So sure you can 'choose' to make the game harder on yourself if you want to be able to craft XYZ recipe, or you can choose to make the game eaiser by taking the melee perks.

    Lopsided much?

    Also your damn right im impatient: im dont have the patience to sit through your crappy 70 level grind to make a steel fireaxe, let alone doing it in every single new game of 7days i play.

    Ask yourself this: Should the game be significantly harder for crafters/builders vs 'nomads'? because thats the reality of what these 'choices' boil down to right now.

    Even bloody runescape makes a distinction between combat and none combat skills. 7D2D right now: you leveled up cooking so your desrve to fight tougher zombies.
    In real life and in the game, if you suck at something you suck at it. Don't like it? Train and get better. Its not good to cater to someone's flaws.

    By your logic if I don't buy barter perks I should just get a better deal because its not fair Rekt is bending me over.
    By your logic if I buy all melee perks, hell I should just be able to craft high tech weapons and armor because TFP is discriminating against stupid bruisers.
    And clearly by your logic or lack thereof, you think that high INT characters should get pushover zombies to fight?

    The game is not significantly harder for crafters/builders. You don't have to fight zombies. You can outrun any zombie in the game. Fighting them is a choice. Just like building INT 10 recipes is your choice. Combat players can't craft get the best gear. Go craft a chainsaw you don't need to be great at melee to saw zeds up. Craft traps and pipe bombs. There are ample tools for the crafter to succeed.

    I like the game to represent that life and choices do have consequences. Don't like sucking at life? Study and train to improve. A fully modded gun does plenty of damage with no perks. Eugene in TWD finally learned how to fight, his brains weren't enough to keep on surviving. I have significant crafting abilities at game stage 105, and I also have significant melee ability. I don't understand the problem. Get on your vehicle and drive off if you can't win a fight.


      Originally posted by Hek Harris View Post
      Thanks ! Really. Not for me, cause like a lot of players I appreciate the game as it is or can take the time to modify some values in xml, but for the good health of this forum. I come here to read ideas, stories, and feel good vibrations. We need to get rid of whiners and terrible players that can't handle the basis of a survival game and the process of game development.
      Its sad how toxic the internet has become. Back in the day it was just elite nerds and most people felt blessed to be online and share mods and stories about their gaming experiences. Normies would be like "what are you doing on that machine?" and didn't comprehend FTP/MIRC or forums in their infancy. Now every idiot with a phone has a toxic opinion. Before it took knowledge and effort to even know how to post online and where.

      A few options can give the game legs for more people so its good for everyone. The default is how we envision it to be played, but if adding more options makes the game enjoyable in a lot more ways then its good.


        Originally posted by HungryZombie View Post
        I think a lot of the problem with people's perception is caused by two things. The tagline at the top of the forum and in the game is "The Survival Horde Crafting Game" I know it might say it elsewhere but this does not invoke Tower Defense or RPG which is a big part of what the game developers seem to want to blend in.

        The 2nd thing was the long pause between A16 and A17. This got a very large group of people used to playing a Survival Horde crafting game and they all were shocked by the Tower Defense and RPG's.
        You've got to be kidding. What part of "The Survival HORDE Crafting Game" implies there isn't tower defense? The worde HORDE implies it IMO. The very first videos and KS, steam and every build of the game had hordes every 7 days. Even the game implies you will die in 7 days. The game isn't going to become a full on RPG, its always been "A survival game with RPG elements".

        Straight from the steam store: "7 Days to Die is an open-world game that is a unique combination of first person shooter, survival horror, tower defense, and role-playing games. Play the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG that came first. Navezgane awaits!"


          Originally posted by WolfyBlah View Post
          Train and get better might be a valid argument for LBD, it dosent really work for a super generic XP grind where the 'training' is farming X ammounts of XP so you can level up and click a box to magically be better at whatever you choose.

          The game is harder for crafters, they have less damage, health and stanina than someone who specialised in those stats.

          Being able to craft the best weapon in the game means jack ♥♥♥♥ when you do less damage than someone with a lower tier weapon and higher stats.

          Now if there was more depth to the crafting so that intelligent play was actualy a substitute for the combat stats... but that isnt what we have.

          So its really not unbalanced in your opinon that a crafter has to level (read: grind XP) significantly more to unlock those higher tier recipes and still ends up doing less damage with thier spiked club than someone with lower tier club and 'the right perks'.

          Want to a spiked club?
          Grind 30 levels or find it as loot/buy from trader.
          Want to actually be able to use it?
          Better not have spent your points on actualy unlocking the thing.
          Builder/Harvester XP is unbalanced, (fixed in the next patch) but game play is not. A top tier crafter, can craft the best mods, and install 5 mods into a gun or club and do some significant damage, where a pure fighter doesn't have the best mods or a pink weapon. Is it equal? No. Should it be? No. But if you bought one or two perks fully modded would rival the unmodded with all the perks.

          Its a laugh how you call everything grinding. I role play and build my character an out house and a nice kitchen to cook in. I paint the walls and build cupboards, and put rugs down. I just play the game and buy the perks that fit this character and do the things I think that character would do in the situation. My point is there are 5000 ways to play this game, and none of it is grinding if you try to be creative and just play the game. Turn the difficulty down if you think its too hard for a builder, or buy a couple combat perks so combat isn't impossible for you.

          Is it 100% balanced? Hell no. Playable? Totally. Its going to take time to balance and make every build work. First task is to make low INT players work before making NO combat perk players work. Nobody is stopping you from buying a couple of combat perks to minimize your frustration.


            Originally posted by HungryZombie View Post
            Sorry man, I stand by what I said. I also am not one of the voices complaining. I like A17 and have been fun testing what I can do. That said...

            I'm sure to your mind HORDE says tower defense to you but it never occurred to me. I just thought horde meant the every 7 day thing like is has always been since before A17. I've never played a tower defense game and only learned of the term from this game. I also feel the, as much as it pains me to say, slew of negative reviews that it never occurred to other people besides myself. "This TD stuff don't belong in my survival game!" is a complaint I often see so I can't be alone.

            Perhaps I didn't express myself correctly. I was talking only of the header. I acknowledged that it is mentioned elsewhere like steam descriptions and your videos. I played this game for over a year and only started being interested enough to look at your videos and I don't recall seeing the steam desc. Maybe I did over a year ago but I've had no reason to look at it again yet I do see your banner every day.

            It's hard to see other perspectives when you are immersed in something you are familiar with. You live and work 7dtd and I don't think it's unreasonable to assume you might have a tainted perspective. I was just offering another view in a friendly manner.

            I appreciate your reply though.
            I appreciate your kind demeanor. I still don't see how anyone can miss the tower defense portion of this game since they come to you unless A, they played less than 7 days, or B, happened to be in a mine every horde night, or C, played modded. It really is one of the core pillars to our game. That said, we will include options soon so people who don't want to do tower defense don't have to. Everyone wins.


              Originally posted by fragtzack View Post
              Agree with MM. The reason I bought the game is #1. Crafting #2. Survival #3 Zombies

              That said and done, back to the purpose of this original poster complaining about A17:

              I paid $15 for this ALPHA game and have exactly 2096 hours played according to Steam, all on A15 and A16. Got my money worth so I have no complaints and would give a positive review based on that.

              But for a17: I can't fricking play a17 because the performance is so bad. Less then 28FPS makes me physically ill and a17 has frequent drops for little reason.
              All the feature changes + and - are moot to me because of the FPS issues.
              Its just a matter of time before its running better.


                Originally posted by Guppycur View Post
                That's fair, it was always your stated intention, but have you noticed that the more RPG elements you add the less fun the game becomes?
                No I notice the exact opposite. Go play fallout new vegas which is THE father of survival games and tell me it doesn't blend well with an RPG.

                The ability to make a character with unique skills and perks each time you play through gives the game replay value. In A16 it was always the exact same build. "Whats your build"? "Survivor" "Oh, me too :P" Now you can specialize in medicine or crafting, a variety of combat, make a glass cannon if you want, etc. Its not perfect but its 100x better than the NO CHOICE you had with A16. You choose what you need to survive and be OP, not to choose a role that might be a different challenge for a veteran.

                It needs more balancing but it has 1000x more potential.


                  Originally posted by Hek Harris View Post

                  Mods. I really don't understand why a lot of players say that quality item doesn't really matter. It's the same thing than before, but better.
                  Exactly. The crafter can craft pink, and craft 5 mods to install into it which increases damage substantially. At the end of the day there is no reason to not have at least one combat skill, because miners/crafters need strength anyway to mine effectively and buy sex rex.


                    Originally posted by crazyduck View Post
                    so you say you Roleplay and do what your Character would do in this situation?
                    Then your Character must be crazy, drunk or Rambo or dead already, cause if you think its normal that a Survivor with bad Weapons or also wiht good Weapons shoudl go out and start hunting Zombies to learn how to cook sorry really that would be perfect for some sort of Zombie Comedy Movie. And this 5000 Way sorry i did not find more then 3 ways. Figthing , minign or crafting now its only Fighting Fighting or making it hard for yourself and at same time loose in MP against every PVP Player.
                    You missed the part where I said the next patch builders get a lot of xp.


                      Originally posted by WolfyBlah View Post
                      I call systems designed as nothing but a time investment from the player a grind because thats what they are. XP exisists for people to level up.

                      I have 0 difficulty in 7days to die and people like you saying "turn difficilty down if you are a flithy casual" (yes, paraphrasing) is beyond condecending, this has never been a difficult game on any difficulty.

                      This alpha is the easiest yet:
                      food/drink? Just put points here to make the game easier.
                      Stamina? Same deal
                      Tempreture? Same deal
                      You get the point.

                      Forgive me if im not understanding this but you cannot craft these mods until you loot the single use schematic to do so? Right?

                      So for a crafters melee weapon to be better they have to not only level up to a point where they can make it they also have to have looted (from POIs with tougher zombies) rare items.

                      Id bet by the time they loot 2 mod schematics for thier tool they will have found many many copies of said tool as loot.

                      Crafters path to optimal weapon: hours of leveling before you can even make it, hours (and hours and hours) of looting to find rare items.
                      Looters: find your weapon in loot, your alreadly looting anyway so you will have mods. Oh and you didnt have to invest in crafting the base item so you are either lower level or massivly more powerful in melee (dosent really matter which, lower gamestage or more powerful charcater both add up to easier gameplay)
                      Its intended in the design of the game for more risk = more reward. Sorry you can't sit on your ass in a cave and come out 3 days later with the best gear the game has anymore. You have to go looting to get the best stuff or pay top dollar for it at a trader.

                      We're going to introduce some simple mods that you don't need a schematic for. But how hard is it to loot a book store? Those aren't very dangerous at all.


                        Originally posted by CovertOrreo View Post
                        Question here,
                        Playing with 5 other people one person maxes INT and can make all the schematics etc... can he make me a lvl6 AK and add all the mods to it then I use it to its full ability (max damage etc)? Or do the mods applied only work if the person using the item has the required perks(yeah science etc)?
                        The gun will do more damage if modded. A guy who has more perception and perks in that gun will do even more damage.


                          Originally posted by Guppycur View Post
                          Since there's no point in them NOT killing themselves (no loot), I just aggro until they pop on their own.

                          - - - Updated - - -


                          Welcome back hope you got some rest.

                          What determines if a player is "lit" for stealth purposes? Vanilla lights cause player visibility to rise, custom unity ones do not seem to.

                          Thanks. I did, but I ate so much junk I need to detox.

                          There are various light checks from items, the chunk and sun/moon. Some old code. Some newer. The light manager probably has to be tracking a light for it to be known. I did notice the moon sprite and the moon light are not exactly in the same location.


                            Originally posted by Kage848 View Post
                            I'm all about fixing bugs. And some exploits, like the frames giving more burn time than the wood used to make them.

                            But trying to defeat players with ai is not only a losing battle I think it's a poor use of the devs time. Players will always figure out a way to cheese.

                            I agree with you, its dumb to have zombies avoid traps. These aren't even zombies anymore. Zombies are supposed to be a force of nature, not thinking beings. Save that stuff for the bandits.
                            What people need to understand is, zombies don't avoid traps because they are traps. They avoid them because they are obstacles. Spikes have to be climbed over because they have a height. That takes time, so they go around. Gazz has a simple way around that, but I'm not telling.

                            There are many tweaks and variations that will be coming for AI, but I still have bugs to get to first, like pathing not working with glass blocks or recently added vehicles not saving on server reset, which are now fixed. The AI ramp loop has been addressed, which has a variation now that makes it less predictable.


                              Originally posted by Gen-Eric View Post
                              Blood moon starts, zombies spawn a distance away from the player in any of the possible 360 degree directions and use their AI to attack. This results in threats coming from all sides and zombies were 'dumb' enough to do the following;

                              Blood moon starts, the zombies spawn a distance away from the player from one direction chosen at random and use their AI to attack. This results in threats coming from one direction and the zombies use their 'advanced' AI to do the following;
                              A16 zombies did not spawn in a 360. I think it was about a 90 degree angle with some other variation. A17 does pretty much the same thing, but path grid following may lead to more clustering than before. More varied attack angles is on my todo list and hopefully will be done next week.


                                The first pass will probably be an alternating 180 spawn for each wave, but maybe with some randomness. Maybe a +120 angle each wave.

                                I also want to experiment with cost variations of distance vs block health.